Question about late 78s on orthophonic era machines

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Mormon S
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Question about late 78s on orthophonic era machines

Post by Mormon S »

While I would like to say I'm really knowledgeable about the cylinder era of phonographs and records, I can't say the same for discs and 78s. Lately I've been more interested in collecting and playing 78s, and just have a few questions about the durability of later records.

I know that playing later records that were electrically recorded generally shouldn't be played on a reproducer meant to play acoustically recorded records (like an exhibition). My question is, can an orthophonic or 5a/5b reproducer play any electrically recorded shellac 78 safely? For example, can a 5a or orthophonic play a 40s Capitol record without excessive wear? Of course keeping in mind that the reproducer has been rebuilt and a fresh needle is always used.

I have looked back at older threads on the topic, there seem to be mixed opinions on what is acceptable to play on what. Sorry if this is an overly asked question, I've only been into acoustic records up till this point.

Thanks
Martin

zenith82
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Re: Question about late 78s on orthophonic era machines

Post by zenith82 »

It's much better than playing them on an acoustic machine, which I've seen way too many times and cringe every time I see it. I wouldn't be too concerned playing common 78s on an Orthophonic machine; however, anything rare or super valuable I would only play on a phono with an electric pickup.

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AZ*
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Re: Question about late 78s on orthophonic era machines

Post by AZ* »

You will get many differing opinions on this issue. There are many factors involved.

1. A lot of the later records such as the 1940's Capitol you mention are made from softer shellac that I have found wears regardless of reproducer and needle used.

2. Needles - Loud tone (thicker) steel needles by their nature plow through grooves and inflict more wear than soft tone (thinner) needles or fibre or cacti needles. Unfortunately, fibre and cacti don't work well on badly worn records.

3. Equalization or pre-emphasis - Most later 78's were produced for electronic phonographs that were designed for the equalization curves used in recording the records. Also Treble and Bass controls on electronic phonographs can be used to make the record sound more pleasing. This is why many later records sound fine on an electronic phonograph, but have weak bass and shrill sounding treble when played on an acoustic machine (even an Orthophonic) that was not designed to handle it. I suggest you read up on record equalization curves to find out more.

A lot depends on the frequency content and loudness of the records. Some will sound OK, some will not.

I generally do not buy these later records for playing on my machines. Keep in mind, however, that suitcase acoustic portables were made in the 1940s, and in the UK, the HMV 102 continued to be made and used throughout the late 1950s for the specific purpose of playing records of that time period.

There are no absolutes. But I have found that many of these later records wear badly and don't sound good even when played on an Orthophonic machine.
Best regards ... AZ*

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marcapra
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Re: Question about late 78s on orthophonic era machines

Post by marcapra »

zenith82 wrote:It's much better than playing them on an acoustic machine, which I've seen way too many times and cringe every time I see it. I wouldn't be too concerned playing common 78s on an Orthophonic machine; however, anything rare or super valuable I would only play on a phono with an electric pickup.
Does the electric pickup on my 1928 Edison C-2 count as an electric pickup? It is an electric pickup with a horseshoe magnetic cartridge that uses steel needles, but may be heavier than an Orthophonic.

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Re: Question about late 78s on orthophonic era machines

Post by Zkeener323 »

Yes, everyone has a different opinion on this for sure. I generally buy European pressings of any late 30s and 40s records I might want to play on an acoustic machine. I just find those pressings work better in my opinion. Then I find it depends on the record brand. Some, like Capitol seem to get chewed up despite your best efforts. Then with some, if the record is worn then it will get chewed up. I guess this is because the records were being pressed "softer". After trial and error, I just know what records I can play on an acoustic machines and what ones are not- unless I want to render them useless fairly quickly. Like anything, if it is a record you really like or had to pay a pretty penny for then you should rarely or never play it on an acoustic machine. One last word of advice. Your machine should have the best tracking alignment possible, the reproducer in tip top shape (especially the back flange) and, tone arm bearings and joints be friction free. This will greatly aid reproducing later records that are going to be giving your machine a hard test.

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Mormon S
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Re: Question about late 78s on orthophonic era machines

Post by Mormon S »

Thank you all for the advice. It might sound silly, but it got me thinking if it would be worth making a mold of late records, and reproduce them with a harder material (epoxy resin in a pressure chamber). Many of my favorite Christmas songs are scarce and only found on late pressings, would be a cool project, I will keep this in mind.

Thanks
Martin

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Re: Question about late 78s on orthophonic era machines

Post by bigshot »

I play everything but Vinylite on my Brunswick Cortez. It all sounds great and no real record wear. Record wear comes from not changing your needle, not playing records. I tried to wear out a record once playing it correctly and changing needles. I got to 100 plays and there was no wear at all, so I gave up.

I really think that all the people worrying about record wear are basing their worry on theory. If your machine is aligned properly and you change your needle every time, you'll get sick of the song long before the record starts to wear.

AmberolaAndy
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Re: Question about late 78s on orthophonic era machines

Post by AmberolaAndy »

I’m too chicken to play any post mid-30s record on my machines. :? That’s what the 40s console radio-phonos are for.

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Governor Flyball
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Re: Question about late 78s on orthophonic era machines

Post by Governor Flyball »

The Orthophonic machine playback follows the "constant modulation velocity" playback characteristic. That is the velocity of the stylus swinging to and fro must throughout the frequency range remain constant to achieve a flat overall frequency response. To achieve this with the mechanical reproducer, the lower bass frequencies must have a much higher amplitude swing than the highest frequencies to maintain the same stylus velocity.

There were two obvious problems: the wide bass groove swings limited the overall loudness of the recording because the bass swing could be high enough to cut into an adjacent groove. Also the bass would be hard to track leading to excessive wear by the low compliance soundboxes of the day. Similarly the high frequency groove swing amplitude must be very small to maintain the constant velocity. Hence high frequencies would be lost to record surface noise.

From about 1935 when electronic playback had become more common, the record recording characteristics began to change. The highs were boosted to overcome the surface noise and the bass was cut to limit the amplitude of the stylus swing. The characteristic now began to follow a "constant amplitude" characteristic. This meant that on the Orthophonic machine and other acoustical playback machines, the post 1935 and later records would sound shrilly and thin. It was assumed by the 1940s and 1950s that everyone would have moved to electronic playback where a corresponding bass boost and treble cut would be employed to achieve a flat playback frequency response. The later playback characteristic was later standardized by the AES and then RIAA. So playback of records from say 1940 on was not really practicable on the Orthophonic.

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Governor Flyball
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Re: Question about late 78s on orthophonic era machines

Post by Governor Flyball »

Another factor which leads to the incompatibility of later recordings played on the Orthophonic Victrola or any acoustic playback machine is the groove shape. During the acoustic and early electric period, the groove was shaped like a U to allow the steel needle to bottom out and wear the bottom of the groove and do less damaged to the modulated adjacent groove walls. From the early '40's, Victor and Columbia moved to a V shaped groove to better accommodate a permanent stylus. Edison was far ahead on this and knew the importance of permanent stylii and he eschewed the use of disposible steel needles as "unscientific".

This means using a steel needle on a later V groove 78 will irreparably damage the recording after one or two plays with the Orthophonic Victrola.
Last edited by Governor Flyball on Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:41 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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