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 Post subject: Re: Berliner restoration
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:01 am 
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Victor II
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:56 pm
Posts: 259
Location: Sydney, Australia
Hi, Shane
Yes I am back, it's good to be home :D I agree, I don't think anyone would go to the trouble of doing finger joints and do a crap job on the rest.

Hi Henry
I agree that there are a lot of reproduction parts on the machine, but I believe that a lot of it is genuine. The base with the difference in colour had me wondering too, but looking closely at it I believe it has been repaired and the centre is the only original section. The motor is the real thing and so is the box. I would say the name plate is the real thing but, like Shane said, if someone can provide a picture of one I am open to be proved wrong.
Henry, the reason for replacing the top board, it looked like crap, even if it is a reproduction, it at least looks better now, and it didn't cost much for the timber, I also enjoy the work :D Thanks for your comments, any info on these machines you can give me I would appreciate.

To sum up, I got screwed on this machine, this is one of the perils of buying on Ebay. You win some then you lose a packet, so I am trying to make the best of it. If anyone can help with getting original parts to bring it up to standard I am interested.

Thanks for the comments
Regards Marcel


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 Post subject: Re: Berliner restoration
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:05 am 
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Victor II
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:56 pm
Posts: 259
Location: Sydney, Australia
Henri Laforge wrote:
These are still very common in Canada. Hope you did not think this was an original Berliner?

Why replace the wooden top of a reproduction? The repro long throat reproducer and tone arm can be found on ebay.ca I would not spend too much on this reproduction. I am sorry, do you have the historie of this machine? Thank you.

Hi Henri
If you come across a genuine Berliner or trade mark machine please let me know, I am interested. I have not found them so easily found, do you have a picture of the badge?

Regards Marcel

PS I have just had a look in Tim and George's book Talking Machine 1877 to 1929 page 112 shows the badge and mine looks to be identical.


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 Post subject: Re: Berliner restoration
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:04 am 
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Victor Jr
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Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:11 pm
Posts: 10
Location: Ottawa
Hello,

I am sorry I thought you understood that the most desirable Berliner "Trademark" gramophones were the original machines made in the United States, some sold there some sold in England, not the more common Berliner manufactured in Montreal. You see Berliner continued to operate in Canada for many years making his gramophones. You may have pieces of one of those 'common' machines.

Also Berliner continue his partnership with VTM and for a long time was Johnson's most successful dealer in Canada under the Berliner label. So you find many Berliner labels here.

Marcel, sorry you feel you were 'screwed'. Please don't blame the seller or market in Canada for these Gram-o-phone machines. Perhaps seller expected you knew what you were buying, not his problem I am afraid, nobody forced you to buy. I don't mean to make you upset here.

Henri


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 Post subject: Re: Berliner restoration
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:18 am 
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Victor Jr
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Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:11 pm
Posts: 10
Location: Ottawa
Hello gramophoneshane,

What are you looking to compare? Can you not see the word Montreal on this ID? Marcel's photos are clear.

When I say fake, I mean not original, maybe collection of parts, but most important many unsuspecting buyers in Europe and United States, now Australia too, think these can be made 'original' thus attempt to go find Johnson reproducer, etc, etc. Sorry, I'm thinking you are confused about this topic.

Henri


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 Post subject: Re: Berliner restoration
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:59 am 
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Victor V
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:21 pm
Posts: 2513
I guess there must be huge price difference between the desirable US models, and the common old Canadian models then?
Ball park figures would do.


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 Post subject: Re: Berliner restoration
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:04 am 
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Victor V
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:21 pm
Posts: 2513
Henri Laforge wrote:
Hello gramophoneshane,

What are you looking to compare? Can you not see the word Montreal on this ID? Marcel's photos are clear.

When I say fake, I mean not original, maybe collection of parts, but most important many unsuspecting buyers in Europe and United States, now Australia too, think these can be made 'original' thus attempt to go find Johnson reproducer, etc, etc. Sorry, I'm thinking you are confused about this topic.

Henri

I was looking to compare the ID tag you said was a repro, to an original example of the same tag. You said the differences were quite obvious, so I was just wondering about the difference of the tags.
No confusion on my part :) I can read.

Maybe we term things differently here too.
A fake to us is a reproduction or crapophone.
A machine made of parts- either old with old, or old with new we call frankenphones.
Sorry if I've confused you.


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 Post subject: Re: Berliner restoration
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:14 am 
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Victor II
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:56 pm
Posts: 259
Location: Sydney, Australia
Henri Laforge wrote:
Hello,

I am sorry I thought you understood that the most desirable Berliner "Trademark" gramophones were the original machines made in the United States, some sold there some sold in England, not the more common Berliner manufactured in Montreal. You see Berliner continued to operate in Canada for many years making his gramophones. You may have pieces of one of those 'common' machines.

Also Berliner continue his partnership with VTM and for a long time was Johnson's most successful dealer in Canada under the Berliner label. So you find many Berliner labels here.

Marcel, sorry you feel you were 'screwed'. Please don't blame the seller or market in Canada for these Gram-o-phone machines. Perhaps seller expected you knew what you were buying, not his problem I am afraid, nobody forced you to buy. I don't mean to make you upset here.

Henri

Hi Henri
I was aware of the model Berliner I was buying, I know full well about the most desirable machines that were sold in the USA and the UK. The reason I say I was screwed on this machine, is that I didn't know when I bought it that some of the parts had been replaced with reproduction parts. I checked with the seller and he believed it was original, I don't blame the seller, he was obviously out of his depth with this machine.
I don't remember saying that I was forced to buy the machine and obviously it's not the sellers problem anymore. I am not upset about the purchase of the machine, just disappointed, I would like to have it in the condition that it should be.

Regards Marcel


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 Post subject: Re: Berliner restoration
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:17 am 
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Victor IV
Contact me for TMF tech support.
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 2:01 pm
Posts: 1077
Location: Boston, MA
Shane,

I think the confusion is that Marcel’s tag reads ‘Made in Canada’ and ‘Montreal’ as opposed to being made elsewhere—my understanding is that Henri was commenting that the Canadian model was common, but the one made in the U.S. was rare.

...and based on Marcel’s response as I was writing this message (which I saw when I just hit the Preview button), he was aware which machine he was buying.

Hope this helps.

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 Post subject: Re: Berliner restoration
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:29 am 
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Victor V
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:21 pm
Posts: 2513
Henri Laforge wrote:
Look closer and see the Berliner ID, also a fake, not the quality of a genuine US, England or Canada Berliner. So very obvious in these photos.


No, I don't think that's what he was saying David.


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 Post subject: Re: Berliner restoration
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:49 am 
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Victor II
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:56 pm
Posts: 259
Location: Sydney, Australia
Hi
Here is a photo from the bottom of the machine, you can see the remnants of a label, I can't make out a lot of it.

Image

Image


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