Soundquality on different machines, outside-inside horn

[B.B.B]

Here is a question that I fully understand can get seriously infected.
I don't want it to go there, so please try to be gentle

To wit,
I live in a country that is a total wasteland when it comes to Talking machines.
Chainsaw collectors (http://www.chainsawcollectors.se/phpbb3/index.php) are far more common than phono-enthusiasts.

So I haven't had the chance to hear that many Talking machines.

After reading a lot, I've become very curious on how different machines perform, soundquality wise.
And I'm not talking about Credenza, Re-entrant HMV and such. (Steve, you can't say EMG either )

My question is (and I know it is a terribly subjective one)
If you would compare the two Victor machines I do have, VV-IV & VV-XI to lets say an outside horn like Victor V or VI, which one sounds "best"
And are there any difference between a VV-XI & VV-XVI & VV-XVIII are the more expensive ones better soundwise & not just in apperance?
And how about Edison DD & Pathé, were are they on the scale?
Outside or inside horn, which do you prefer?

To be a bit more precise, let's say it is a acoustic recording in good shape with a re-built s/b.

[Starkton]

I prefer outside horn machines, because over 90% of my records date pre 1906 and I like to reproduce them with contemporary equipment.

Just assumed I wanted the best possible and gentle reproduction, I would go for an electronic amplifier and a modern record player.

[gramophoneshane]

I can't comment on the Victor machine differences, but if sound quality is your goal, then go for the best soundbox with the biggest horn.
If the machines you've mentioned all use an Exhibition, then they'd probably all sound very much the same, unless one has a folded horn of some sort. You'd probably find a horn machine has a bigger horn than the cabinet models, and an oak or mahogany MM horn would again improve the sound.
Personally, I won't play anything except early one sided disc's with an exhibition.
A No4 or ortho soundbox are just far superior IMO on any other disc.

[OrthoFan]

if sound quality is your goal, then go for the best soundbox with the biggest horn.

I second Shane's comment. Normally, the larger/longer the horn, the better the sound quality, providing the horn is properly designed, and there are no air leaks in the tone chamber.

Based on what I've listened to, a properly restored outside horn Victor, equipped with a larger flower or morning glory type horn, sounds much better-fuller, brighter, less directional, etc., than one of the Victrolas equipped with a smaller horn, such as the VV_XI or VV-IV. (Earlier versions of the VV-IV, in fact, have the motor suspended in the tone chamber! SEE: http://victor-victrola.com/IV.htm )

If the machines you've mentioned all use an Exhibition, then they'd probably all sound very much the same, unless one has a folded horn of some sort.

Based only on my personal experience, I'd have to disagree with this statement. Over the years, I've tried my Exhibition sound box out on a number of collectors' Victrolas and Victor Talking Machines and noticed a substantial difference between those machines equipped with larger and smaller horns, as well as those with outside horns. (My Exhibition sound box, though, may be an exception, since it was restored years ago by a person who was noted for getting the best performance out of any sound box.)

One thing to keep in mind, if any Victrolas ever come your way: A few years before the Orthophonic Victrolas were introduced, Victor started fitting many of their cabinet models with larger tone chambers. Those would be the later versions of the numbered-series cabinets.

For instance, the bottom of the line VV-80 was given a larger cabinet and tone chamber in Dec. 1922, starting with serial number 74362, (SEE -- http://victor-victrola.com/80.htm )Along this line, the VV-100's horn was increased in size in 1923, starting with serial 123600. (SEE: http://victor-victrola.com/100.htm ) The complete list of models is available on this page -- http://victor-victrola.com/new_page_2.htm )

If you collect mostly acoustic records, then probably one of the later series Victrolas would be your best bet--one of the larger & later cabinet models equipped with a #2 sound box and "fat" tapering tonearm.

If you prefer electrically recorded records, then you would do well to hunt down a post-1925 era phonograph. Even the little Consolette, with its non-folded exponential horn, will do a remarkable job. (It also does a great job playing pre-1925 records, and rivals any outside horn Victor Talking Machine, IMHO.)

BTW, where are you located? From time to time collectors spot phonographs for sale in various parts of the country on sites such as Craigslist, etc., and if you'd like, perhaps we could pass info along to you?

[bbphonoguy]

I have no personal experience with external horn machines (a situation I'm always hoping to remedy) so everyone please resist the urge to bite my head off if I'm wrong, but I've heard that external wooden horns give the best sound. Having said that, in my own experience, as far as internal acoustic horns go, the bigger the horn the better the sound (which is why I prefer listening to consoles). If we want to get into later phonos, I haven't found any acoustic reproduction which can rival a well restored Credenza.

[Steve]

I haven't found any acoustic reproduction which can rival a well restored Credenza.

No, and you probably won't in the States to be honest but travel overseas and you'll be AMAZED how much further acoustic reproduction was advanced!

I agree with Shane. The longer the acoustic system and the bigger the horn (if exponential type and sealed as Ortho-Fan said) the better the reproduction in general.

Apply that to what you already know and what you've already got and there's your answer.

[Valecnik]

And I'm not talking about Credenza, Re-entrant HMV and such. (Steve, you can't say EMG either )

My question is (and I know it is a terribly subjective one)
If you would compare the two Victor machines I do have, VV-IV & VV-XI to lets say an outside horn like Victor V or VI, which one sounds "best"
And are there any difference between a VV-XI & VV-XVI & VV-XVIII are the more expensive ones better soundwise & not just in apperance?
And how about Edison DD & Pathé, were are they on the scale?
Outside or inside horn, which do you prefer?

To be a bit more precise, let's say it is a acoustic recording in good shape with a re-built s/b.

I think we are probably opening a debate akin to argueing whether a curvacious redhead is more attractive than a buxom blond but here goes:

Having heard examples of the mid-late teens, early 20s victrolas you are asking about, they would all sound pretty good with acoustic records of the period. I suppose the XVI would have a slightly better sound than a XI because of the bigger horn. I don't think the XVIII would be noticeably better than the XVI. It was just more expensive.

Edison Diamond Discs machines and records of the period sound equally as good as the victors, except for that bad patch in around 1917-1918 when they had to change the recepe of the records due to war shortages. Perhaps the "good" Edisons seem a little clearer although the Victors might be a bit louder.

I think Pathé's product was also competitive in that time period.

In a nutshell, no big difference between the three. With the introduction of electrical recording Edison started to fall behind a bit.

All that being said, if I had to keep just one disc machine it would be a laboratory model Edison Diamond Disc with an attachment to play lateral records should I want to do so and curvacious redheads ARE better than buxom blonds!

[Steve]

What's wrong with skinny blondes, why do they always have to be buxom?

I would just like to add another vote for Pathé here. I haven't got an Edison DD machine to compare them to (there is no point because getting good DD's is...well....nearly impossible here)and I'll admit that straight off but the sound from any of my Pathé records played through a good external horn Pathé machine with rebuilt reproducer, simply makes minced meat out of my contemporary HMV equivalents. Now, the HMV machines are identical to Victor from an acoustic point of view (from the pre-Orthophonic acoustic recording era type anyway)so I'm surprised that no one else has suggested this yet?

To my mind Edison DD's would have to be a lot better than Victor's playback to be anywhere near the Pathé system. I would also point out that unlike most of my collecting friends here and elsewhere, I do not have any particularly good Pathé records to show off either.

So from my own personal perspective, there is nothing to equal Pathé (jury's out on Edison) before the later acoustic developments by that company I'm not allowed to mention.

[gramophoneshane]

What's wrong with skinny blonde's you ask Steve

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww[/youtube]

[Steve]

LOL! Oh well, Shane, that was a good answer!

I'll never be able to put either the words "dumb" or "blonde" in a sentence again without them given each other company!

"I believe the reason why er US Americans (are there any other type?) er can't find America on a map is because some of the er types of people er well they er don't have the maps!"

And what the heck was she trying to say about Africa? I've watched it 3 times now and I'm still lost. Is this another language?

ABSOLUTELY PRICELESS