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 Post subject: How To Store Cylinders: I Think I Found The Answer!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:03 pm 
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Victor II
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:08 pm
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Location: Somewhere looking for a 9ft Brass Horn
Hey Everyone,

so i have had a lot of time to think latly because i have a cold and i have been in bed.And today i was think how everyone always asks "how to store cylinder?".I cant even tell you how many times i have seen this question.So it got me thinking and here is what i thought. :idea: :idea:

I am sure most of you have seen those "archival cylinder boxes" on ebay that were designed and used by The Library Of Congress.I havent seen them on there in a while but all they do is take the oxygen out of the cylinder box.Sounds fancy right? Well i think i know how to make your own.All you really need is painters dessicant or those little packs you find in the bottom of beef jurky bags that say "do not eat".These 2 things do the same thing as the "archival" boxes.Painter dessicant can be found most anywhere paint is sold but to get those little pack i dont expect you to go out and buy hundreds of packs of beef jurky.So just guessing but i would say those packs could be found where those vacum sealers are sold.

So to make and "archival" boxe with those little packs just simply place one in the box the cylinder is in.

To make make one with the painters dessicant just get a large box(one that can fit many cylinders) and put a false bottom in it.Basically making 2 levels. Befor putting the4 false bottom in sprinkle some painters dessicant on the bottom and the place the false bottom on.Poke some holes in it and then place you cylinders(in there boxes) on top.For the best result you should take the tops off the cylinder boxes.Then just close the box. If you have a plastic tub with a snap on top the may even be better.

So what do you guys this? I thought this might be good way for people to stor their VERY RARE cylinders and not nessecarily there comon
edisons or Columbias.But you could store them in it too.So tell me your thoughts guys ill be in bed all... day...


Aaron :)


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 Post subject: Re: How To Store Cylinders: I Think I Found The Answer!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:37 pm 
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Victor III
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Hi Aaron,

Interesting idea. I am not an dessicant expert, but I have heard that dessicants have a finite amount of moisture uptake. Some of them can be dried and some cannot.

Either way, there are a few issues:

-How to track when the moisture uptake is maxed out?
-How to adequately dry dryable dessicant (same may require long exposure to heat, or chemical treating)

I don't think it will be long term solution. It will require monitoring and action to remove, dry, or replace.

Feel better soon.

Brad
Why do we need signatures when we are on a first avatar basis?


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 Post subject: Re: How To Store Cylinders: I Think I Found The Answer!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:53 pm 
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Victor I
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Aaron wrote:
I am sure most of you have seen those "archival cylinder boxes" on ebay that were designed and used by The Library Of Congress.I havent seen them on there in a while but all they do is take the oxygen out of the cylinder box.

A dessicant will not remove oxygen, only moisture. This is definitly a good thing but my question is how much to use. These dessicants have the ability to absorb SERIOUS amounts of moisture within a contained area. If you use enough, ALL OF IT. Can removal of all moisture cause any harmful effects to any of the materials used to manufacture the records? The wax formulations, the celuloid plastics and even the plaster? I do use it, not only in bulk record storage (not in individual boxes) but also in the cabinets of my machines but only in small quantities


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 Post subject: Re: How To Store Cylinders: I Think I Found The Answer!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:38 pm 
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Victor Jr
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I'm collections manager for a museum and we have had occasion to use dessicants in air-tight containers for long-term storage. In essence, the silica gel removes moisture from an enclosed area, but once the box or bag is opened, the moisture flows in again and must be removed again. The dessicant can only handle so much before it must be replaced or baked dry again (if even possible). If you experiment with this technique, understand that once the box is opened, you will probably need to replace the silica gel packets in order to achieve the low moisture environment again.


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 Post subject: Re: How To Store Cylinders: I Think I Found The Answer!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:08 pm 
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Victor III
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:30 pm
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My Father was in Environmental Engineering for many years and used a dessicant called "Drierite" that had a color indicator built into it. When the desicant was full of moisture, it would change color from blue to purple. At that point it can be baked and reused. Here's the company website:

http://www.drierite.com/default.cfm?gcl ... agodkRV41A

It might be useful for keeping your cylinders dry. The real key to it all would be regular inspection and replacement of the dessicant. If left in place without changing, it could possibly be worse than not having any at all. An interesting idea, though!

Martin


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 Post subject: Re: How To Store Cylinders: I Think I Found The Answer!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:32 pm 
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Victor II
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:08 pm
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Location: Somewhere looking for a 9ft Brass Horn
McIntus wrote:
I'm collections manager for a museum and we have had occasion to use dessicants in air-tight containers for long-term storage. In essence, the silica gel removes moisture from an enclosed area, but once the box or bag is opened, the moisture flows in again and must be removed again. The dessicant can only handle so much before it must be replaced or baked dry again (if even possible). If you experiment with this technique, understand that once the box is opened, you will probably need to replace the silica gel packets in order to achieve the low moisture environment again.


McIntus,

Brad brought up the subject of how to monitor the oxygen and moisture level.How do they do this in the museums?And what do they like to keep the oxygen and mosture levels at.

Aaron


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 Post subject: Re: How To Store Cylinders: I Think I Found The Answer!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:05 pm 
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Victor II
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:08 pm
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Location: Somewhere looking for a 9ft Brass Horn
http://cool-palimpsest.stanford.edu/byorg/chicora/chicenv.html



Here is a link with some info i fouund on the different temps. and moisture levels kept at museums.


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 Post subject: Re: How To Store Cylinders: I Think I Found The Answer!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:59 am 
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Victor VI
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Here's another link with recommendations on storing various kinds of media including was cylinders. I'v posted it before.

http://www.keene.edu/library/OrangAsli/sound.pdf

According to the article, cylinders, even wax cylinders are more tolerant than I expected. Ideal conditions are temperature between ~52F and 68F and humidity of, no lower than 35%. 45% is ideal. If humidity goes above 65% you may start having trouble according to the article. Big, quick fluctuation of either temp or humidity can be the most problematic.

I would be cautious about using the dessicant method. I suppose if you were not careful you could get the humidity too low. I'd also be worried about any leaching effect of the dessicant and how to monitor as has already been pointed out.

I guess based on the above mentioned article I would recommend storing your cylinders in a closed, climate controlled room with humidity as close to 45% as possible and temp between 52 and 68F if possible.


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 Post subject: Re: How To Store Cylinders: I Think I Found The Answer!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:26 am 
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Victor II
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Location: Somewhere looking for a 9ft Brass Horn
Thanks for the link Valecnik! Its got some get info.

Aaron


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 Post subject: Re: How To Store Cylinders: I Think I Found The Answer!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:41 pm 
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Victor Jr
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Aaron wrote:
Brad brought up the subject of how to monitor the oxygen and moisture level.How do they do this in the museums?And what do they like to keep the oxygen and mosture levels at.

Aaron


We generally try to keep collections storage areas between 45-55% relative humidity and 55-65 degrees F. Of course it doesn't always work out, but mold will start to grow at rH above 65%.

We don't really have collections that are overly sensitive to oxygen. We keep HEPA filters running continuously in storage areas to keep down on airborne particulates (fancy word for dust). The main thing we try to protect from exposure to air is the silver. Pollutants (i.e. sulfur) in the air will react with the silver to oxidize it making it tarnish.

What does this have to do with cylinders? Not much, I guess, although I would suggest the avoidance of wool in the packing of cylinders as it contains and gives off sulfur which might react with moisture in the air to form a weak acid . . . which can't be good for cylinders.

Metal Edge makes a cylinder storage box, but I've found the cost to be prohibitive. I guess if you have something truly rare you might spring for some, but I could never justify it on my budget. You can take a look here:

http://www.metaledgeinc.com/Products.tp ... 2=1000&792


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