Victor Spearpoint horns

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pallophotophone
Victor II
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Victor Spearpoint horns

Post by pallophotophone »

Hello,
I have 2 spearpoint horns that need work on the small ends. One suffers from horn sag but doesn't seem damaged. The other is damaged by what looks like would happen if someone leaned on the horn rim and caused a partial wood fracture at the edge. Both of the metal ends do engage their elbows correctly.
There doesn't seem to be a way of removing the metal parts to make repairs , but both ends do move. Did Victor assemble them in a way that makes disassembly impossible ?

The damaged horn end rotates a little but I didn't force it out of concern of causing more damage.

I know there is a gentleman that does fine work on metal horns, but is there anyone who can do work on wood? Are these horns beyond repair ? I'd hate to think so.
I'd just like to get these stabilised so they could be used and look right.

Thanks,
Bob Hodge

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Curt A
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Re: Victor Spearpoint horns

Post by Curt A »

Bob, post pics of the damage and maybe someone can help - they are definitely NOT beyond repair...
"The phonograph† is not of any commercial value."
Thomas Alva Edison - Comment to his assistant, Samuel Insull.

"No one needs a Victrola XX, a Perfected Graphophone Type G, or whatever you call those noisy things."
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pallophotophone
Victor II
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Re: Victor Spearpoint horns

Post by pallophotophone »

Thanks Curt,

I was concerned that they would be unrepairable. Someone is offering a new replacement horn end assembly on Ebay and I thought it might offer some hints on how to disassemble the original ends, but it didn't help.

Here are some pictures showing their condition. The damage on one is almost invisible to the eye but shows as a small gap at the horn/coupling junction and a small hole in one segment.
The other is very obvious. I believe the wood is all there, but is fractured at the top.
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The first 3 ought to be the one less damaged. The remainder ought to be the worse example.

Thanks Again, And Best Wishes !

pallophotophone
Victor II
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Re: Victor Spearpoint horns

Post by pallophotophone »

part 2 of 2
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Last edited by pallophotophone on Tue Mar 19, 2024 2:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

pallophotophone
Victor II
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Re: Victor Spearpoint horns

Post by pallophotophone »

Oh dear- 060 is not part of the less damaged horn.

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Roaring20s
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Re: Victor Spearpoint horns

Post by Roaring20s »

I fix a horn and I had never worked on one before, so it can be done. Lucky for me the damage was under the end cap and the cap was off the horn. In addition, some loose veneer needed gluing beyond that area. After replacing the two missing layers of wood, I glue the outer and inner caps to the horn. It's rock solid again.
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James.

pallophotophone
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Re: Victor Spearpoint horns

Post by pallophotophone »

Thank You James For Your Reply!
Congratulations on being able to do this very difficult thing !! The secret was having the darned cap already off so you could do the necessary woodwork.
The Story:
When I purchased the Victor V my horn was on, I counted on being able to restore the horn.

My cap wouldn't come off for love nor money. It would rotate 180 degrees, wobble, and all of it for naught. And what I had to do to do (pulling straight up) to get it off caused more damage to the end than I had to begin with. Delicacy would not have turned the trick.

There is a fine gentleman on Ebay- Eduardo- that is making new replacement end caps for Victor wood horns. He's also making new exact copy replacement wood horns for Victor and other machines.
Selling them through Musical Treasures Of Miami. (Shameless Plug !) I asked him if he knew anything about how Victor made theirs and how it could be removed.

He wrote back:

Hello Bob,
Thanks for asking.
Hope I can tell you how to do it without damaging the metals but unfortunately to my knowledge that is not possible. My design is different so people could do it where the horn is and do not have to send me their horn to me. The original was machine attach one inside the other and roll it in the smallest side. I do not know how to remove an original without damaging the metal parts. If there is a way to do it I don't know about it.
Hope this message could help you a bit.
If you need anything else, please let me know.
Good luck with your project!
Eduardo

Talk about being helpful and not trying to sell me something ! Odds are I'll be buying one of his Oak horns.

Cordially !!

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Raphael
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Re: Victor Spearpoint horns

Post by Raphael »

Yes, indeed, Eduardo is a true gentleman, and a perfectionist as well. After many years of doing business with him, and the passing of my friend Don Gfell, I decided to stock his horns here in the U.S. Currently there are over 35 in stock, and more in the pipeline. If you need an oak Victor horn, we have dark, light, and unfinished oak ones available.

Raphael

JerryVan
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Re: Victor Spearpoint horns

Post by JerryVan »

I'll share what I've done. It came out very nice, but you'll have to judge if it's the right method for you.

The sleeve on my horn was loose and bent, maybe not as bad as yours. I was able to push the sleeve into the proper position. With the sleeve held in its proper place, I turned the horn upright, (big end facing up). I also put a bit of putty at the seam between the inner and outer sleeves, to make a seal. With the horn in that position, I injected a thin, liquid epoxy into the sleeve. At the time, the epoxy product was known as Kwik-Poly, (no longer available). It was a nearly water-like in its consistency and was made to penetrate wood and to fill voids. With a syringe, I injected just enough to fill the sleeve to its edge. I let it dry overnight and had a solid, invisible repair.

There are several epoxy products currently available that should work equally as well. I have used West Systems products... https://www.westsystem.com/
I called them and explained exactly what I needed to do. They were very helpful and recommended and excellent product, (not for the horn in this case).

Others have recommended this product. It looks very promising. You basically want to fill the sleeve and bond it to the wood while also joining any broken fragments within.
https://www.abatron.com/product/liquidw ... -hardener/

Whatever method you use, be careful and deliberate as you proceed because whatever you do will be permanent.

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Re: Victor Spearpoint horns

Post by JerryVan »

pallophotophone wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 3:28 pm
There doesn't seem to be a way of removing the metal parts to make repairs , but both ends do move. Did Victor assemble them in a way that makes disassembly impossible ?

Thanks,
Bob Hodge
I have two theories on how Victor assembled the horn sleeves. There is an inner and an outer sleeve. The two are joined by a rolled and crimped joint at the end of the sleeve. My first theory is that the inner & outer are crimped together before joining to the wood. The inner sleeves appear to be zinc, while the outers are brass. My thought is that the inner sleeve is initially not tapered when it's joined to the outer. This allows the sleeve assembly to be slipped over the end of the wood horn. Then, a tapered form tool is pressed into the inner sleeve, expanding it tightly against the wood, thereby clamping the sleeve in place. The relatively soft zinc should allow for this expansion. My second theory is that the inner and outer sleeves are crimped together after each are installed on the wood horn. I believe the first method would produce the tighter joint. As I stated, these are my theories, (call them guesses if you like).

Either way, the sleeves are not easily removed without some level of destruction involved.
horn.pdf
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