Featrued Phonograph No. 84 - Decca Salon

[gramophoneshane]

Very nice Decca Salon Nat. I missed this thread when it was posted. It was a few days after my mother broke her hip so I wasn't online very much.
Those Garrard motors are of excellent quality & I doubt you'll ever have a problem with it. The semi-automatic brake looks interesting, & it's one I've never come across before. Being a Garrard brake, it should be reliable once you find the sweet spot that trips it for most of the records you play on it.

Do you have the manual brake too (missing in the picture), or did it not come with the machine?

These turntables never had felt on them, but instead used a velour with a nickel plated eyelet in the centre to prevent the fabric from fraying (as pictured below). The blue velour below (minus the rust lol) was fairly common on Garrard turntables, although I've also seen chocolate brown, fawn & a dark mushroom pink too. There may well have been other colours used a well.

The soundbox (& tonearm) are Thorens products, as indicated by the anchor trademark on the mask. It appears to be exactly the same as the Rexophonic Prismaphonic boxes they made from Rexonola over here, and while they do produce quite good sound, I wouldn't go playing any really good records with it. They track at around 173gms, which is almost twice the recommended weight for 78s, and this combined with the fairly non-compliant plates on the needle bar arrangement really isn't kind on records.
If you want to play anything good, this is one machine you should use fibre needles with.

Nice machine, thanks for sharing. Interesting governor design with the springs outside of the weights, I've never seen that before. Also quite an elaborate auto-brake design. Does it work properly?
Funny that the motor says "Salon - Made in England" while the soundbox is also called "Salon" but Swiss made.
Thanks
Andreas

That style of governor was used by Garrard on a lot of late 20s spring motors, and they continued to use it well into the 1940s in electric motors too. I'm pretty sure I've even got a small HMV motor in a portable that also uses the same governor weight set-up. They work really well & aren't screwed to the governor in the usual way, but clip over small lugs that allow the spring to slide on them a little, which does away with having to adjust and balance all 3 weight. I've yet to see one that has a broken governor spring & they take up less space than a conventional governor, which I suppose allowed them to design a slightly more compact motor.

Decca had ties with Thorens almost from the beginning, and most pre-electric era machines are made up completely from Thorens parts. I'm not sure when Decca started using Garrard motors, or even if they continued using Thorens motors during the late 20s & early 30s, and reserved the Garrard motors for use in higher end models, but it's not surprising to see the Thorens soundbox with the Salon name on it.
Thorens seems to have had no problems with putting outside brand names on their motors & reproducers, and only including "Swiss Made" on the item. I'm actually a little surprised to see the Thorens Anchor trademark on the mask, as they normally didn't include it on reproducers of this era. It is however often included on paper labels that were visible through mica diaphragms.

Like Thorens, Garrard also put outside company names on their motors. All British made Columbias used Garrard motors until the EMI merger, and they were always labelled "Columbia" instead of "Garrard". It seems they allowed Decca the same honour on the bedplate at least.
I've often wondered if there was some connection between Garrard & Thorens, as 90% of machines with a Garrard motor are coupled with Thorens tonearms & soundboxes (Garrard never made their own AFAIK), and Garrards first motor, the 1A, was also made by Thorens, sometimes using their own name or sometimes using other company names like Aeolian.
These motors would have been completely interchangable except that 1 of the 4 motor board mounting screw holes would be positioned in a slightly different spot on the motors upper casting. If you are happy to use only 3 screws to mount them on the motor board, you can indeed swap all these 1A motors in a machine.

[Nat]

Wow! Thanks for all the information; I'm going to print it out and stick it in the envelope I leave in all my machines with the date of restoration, etc.

The turntable was stripped bare when i got it, and as I was unable to find any pictures or information, I "winged it" with the felt and simply pleased myself.

I take your point about tracking weight, and this machine which goes to my cabin in the spring, only plays second copies, later prints, etc. But haven't I read/seen somewhere, in an ancient Gramophone, I believe, about a counterweight device? it might be fun to try to come up with one, as long as it was non-invasive and easily detachable.

Finding that "sweet spot" has so far eluded me; the manual brake was not with it when I bought the machine, but it stops and starts easily by moving the tonearm out or in, like the late Victrola portables, which I believe borrowed the mechanism from HMV (note: the Decca is a completely different set-up, but is operated the same way).

Many thanks for all the info - I've looked and looked, and not been able to find much. ut the bottom line is that it looks and sounds great. Quite a find, I think!

Nat

[Salon]

There was a previous un-numbered Salon Decca cabinet model, introduced in late 1928 as Decca's entry into the "carriage trade" in competition with the HMV Re-entrants (it is slightly larger than a 163) and lasting less than a year. My example in oak is larger and much heavier than subsequent versions, with 1-inch thick doors with substantial front decoration. The front lid panel is finished in figured-walnut veneer, as is the top portion of the doors. The Garrard double-spring motor is mounted on the standard Garrard unit plate (inscribed "Salon Decca" on top) with no automatic brake. The lid stay is of the "lift up and engage / disengage type: somewhat inadequate for the exceptionally heavy lid which has no bottom moulding and could cause broken hand and wrist bones if allowed to drop.
The massive "Audioscopic" horn arrangement is of bifurcated saxophone configuration, with one horn slightly out of phase to the other. Decca explained that, in trial builds, exactly-matching horns produced a harsh, clinical sound.
I always thought Decca relied on Paillard for its soundboxes of this period: this gramophone's 3-inch diameter example has "No. 8 SOUNDBOX" in raised letters at the top of its backplate. This exact unit was also fitted to the Salon Decca 120 and 130 portables. The tone-arm is of larger diameter than the HMV models, so the soundbox has a consequently larger diameter connection with a thick rubber insulator inside a metal ring that provides a tight fitting by means of a large-headed screw adjuster at the top of the backplate connector.
The sound from this gramophone is decidedly superior to the Re-entrant models, with a full rounded tone of great musical capacity and an extended bass response.

[vansteem78]

Did not expect to see a British machine under this section. I have never seen a Decca upright but boy sure looks good to me. A great find. I have only two Decca portables Junior is one other newer. Thanks for showing us. Looking forward to seeing the inside! Neil

[epigramophone]

Here is my Model 72, which I sold to make room for something rarer :

[Phono48]

To operate the automatic brake correctly, pull the arm to the right until the turntable starts revolving, then hold the soundbox over the run-off groove, so that the needle is about a quarter of an inch in from the end of the record.Then push the black button, which will cause the thin central lever to move across to the right, and make contact with the pin mounted on the arm. Once set, it usually works with most standard 10 and 12" records.

[Orchorsol]

By coincidence one has just turned up on eBay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DECCA-Wind-u ... 1438.l2649
I sold one to someone in the same area of East Sussex around 10 years ago - might even be this same one, it certainly looks like it.

[Nat]

My machine sits in the cabin of a friend in British Columbia - simply no room for it in my house. Other than an extremely heavy reproducer and a motor that only pays one 12" record, this is about the best-sounding machine I've heard - and it sounds equally good with acoustics and electrical recordings, It's a wonderful machine - I need to find room for it at home!

[Inigo]

I've never owned a Decca, but I follow information about them with curiosity and interest. The Garrard motors are superbe, no doubt. The Thorens soundboxes of this type, similar to the Paillard, in case they aren't sister or closely related companies, which I suspect, are very good. I own a Thorens branded, somewhat flatter and lighter model, named no. 17, and sounds incredibly well. I also owned a thicker Paillard Maestrophonic working in the same principles (characteristic aluminium diaphragm with a huge central dome, needlebar attached to a plate-spring made of copper). I discovered a certain tuning was possible, by means of the needlebar attachment to the plate-spring. This consists of two metal plates at both sides of the thin plate-spring, one free and the other soldered to the needlebar body. These two thick metal plates are screwed one to the other by one little screw at each side. Thus they squeeze the thin copper spring-plate between them. At the other end, the spring plate is jammed the same way between another metal plate and the soundbox body.
Well, a certain adjustment can be done at the movable end (or at the fixed end, or both simultaneously) if the screws are but slightly unscrewed. They came from the factory pretty tight. It seems that a certain pressure relief on the spring plate can be thus made, and this increases the compliance somehow. A certain change in sound is then noticed, towards the bass side. And I'm pretty sure this improves the hard resistance of the needle against the grooves.
Of course, the tracking weight is a companion to the needlebar compliance. If the lateral movement is stiff, playing weight must be heavy. Otherwise the needle won't track properly, and destruction of the groove wall will more severe. If a counterweight is added, then the needlebar compliance must be increased accordingly, to ease the needle vibration. These must be careful and slight adjustments, not moving the soundbox adjustment too far from its basic design standard working point.
I've seen many YouTube videos of a Decca portable 120/130 using this soundbox, and the sound is simply astonishing. Other Decca portables in YouTube have a Meltrope III soundbox, perhaps better. I had not yet managed to extract that good sound from my Meltrope example. I don't know what's the problem, but mine doesn't amplify the treble properly.
But the Thorens/Paillard soundboxes I've had, have an incredible sound.

[Inigo]

I want to make another point in defense of this type of semi-automatic brake that works when the tonearm reaches a certain point near the spindle, which must be set prior to playing a record. These brakes generally are inert until the tonearm or an extension of it comes into contact with an action lever. Thus, the tonearm advances through the entire record unmolested, and only at the end it presses on the brake lever. These are the auto-brakes as the ones carried the Aeolian, or the old style Victor/HMV.

SEMIBRAKE.jpg

These Decca machines have a very good one, and I've seen similar brakes on other machines, German portables and others.
The fully automatic brakes, as the latest Victor/HMV models, have an action lever which is carried by the tonearm extension bar along the entire record, theoretically with a minor drag effect, but in fact, this continuous lateral drag acts against the record groove and the needle all along. This is particularly noticeable when using fibre needles (more sensitive to any drag) and still worst if a counterweight is being used, or the soundbox is light (Meltrope, for instance). Of course, the drag is minimal, or so it should be, and unoticeable when using steel needles and the full soundbox weight.
I discovered this because I use bamboo needles in the HMV 194, and for time I went doing experiments with a counterweight. If the soundbox weight is counteracted, the bamboo needle becomes more sensitive to any lateral bias, and to the drag of the brake lever.
Despite oiling the contact parts between the tonearm extension and the brake lever, which is a springed fork that catches a protruding pin of the tonearm extension, I noticed a lateral drag when moving the tonearm. This drag was noticeable, and disappeared when the brake lever is disengaged from the pin and moved apart.

ORTHOBRAKE.jpg

I arrived to a happy solution by levelling the machine, and disengaging the auto brake. Then the fibres could run by several sides without repointing (sweet classical music) and with a clear sound.
Finally, I felt the need to use the commodity of an auto-brake when possible, so I disassembled the original HMV full brake and installed a spare old style Victor semi-auto-brake that I happen to have. The action lever only drags on the needle at the very end of the record, with minimal damage to the fibre needle, especially if a deeper runout groove exists. The original brake and its screws are safely kept in the machine, but out of use. Pity that I don't have one like the Decca, which maybe could be installed without removing the original one.