New 78's Possibilities...

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52089
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Re: New 78's Possibilities...

Post by 52089 »

SteveM wrote:Re: licensing. I need schooling.

If I buy a song on iTunes, for instance, I'm allowed to burn it to cd as many times as I want. I guess I could even put it onto a cassette, if my car had a cassette player. The problem is, I don't have a cassette recorder. Can I get my neighbor to record it onto cassette if I pay him for the cassette and his time? How about if he has a lathe and I don't have a CD player (which I don't : ) or cassette player, but DO have an old phonograph.

In terms of these 78s ... tiny, tiny, numbers ... trying to scrape together as many as 10, even. And for personal use, at that.

I'd gladly buy a song on iTunes and send it to Don and pay him for his time and expenses to put it onto a resin disc that will play it back for me. Just for me.

Where is the disconnect here, that I'm missing? (Honestly asking, in the spirit of learning.)
Something you buy from iTunes is subject to the iTunes license and copyright law. Under US copyright law, you can make copies for your own personal use in basically any format you want. So yes, you could theoretically send an MP3 to Donnie and have him make one copy of a 78 for you. However, you can't transfer ownership of the original (or destroy it) without destroying the copies, and you can't transfer the copies at all; they are tied to the original by law.

Since Donnie wants to make copies for sale, he has to get licenses from the copyright holders of both the recording and the composition. Licenses for use of compositions are pretty easy to get. The Harry Fox company handles most of those and they have an easy-to-use online system called Songfile. License fees are set by statute: 9.1 cents per copy for any song less than 5 minutes long. Fox also charges an administration fee on top of that.

Licensing the recording is another story. There's no "clearinghouse" for this, nor is there a set fee or license terms. In other words, if you want to license a recording, you have to find out who owns the recording copyright, then find out who at that company handles licenses, then negotiate with them.

That's it in very broad terms. The problem with copyright is that it varies greatly from country to country, and the rules always have exceptions. Ask more questions if you like and I'll do my best to answer.

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SteveM
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Re: New 78's Possibilities...

Post by SteveM »

52089 wrote:
SteveM wrote:Re: licensing. I need schooling.

If I buy a song on iTunes, for instance, I'm allowed to burn it to cd as many times as I want. I guess I could even put it onto a cassette, if my car had a cassette player. The problem is, I don't have a cassette recorder. Can I get my neighbor to record it onto cassette if I pay him for the cassette and his time? How about if he has a lathe and I don't have a CD player (which I don't : ) or cassette player, but DO have an old phonograph.

In terms of these 78s ... tiny, tiny, numbers ... trying to scrape together as many as 10, even. And for personal use, at that.

I'd gladly buy a song on iTunes and send it to Don and pay him for his time and expenses to put it onto a resin disc that will play it back for me. Just for me.

Where is the disconnect here, that I'm missing? (Honestly asking, in the spirit of learning.)
Something you buy from iTunes is subject to the iTunes license and copyright law. Under US copyright law, you can make copies for your own personal use in basically any format you want. So yes, you could theoretically send an MP3 to Donnie and have him make one copy of a 78 for you. However, you can't transfer ownership of the original (or destroy it) without destroying the copies, and you can't transfer the copies at all; they are tied to the original by law.

Since Donnie wants to make copies for sale, he has to get licenses from the copyright holders of both the recording and the composition. Licenses for use of compositions are pretty easy to get. The Harry Fox company handles most of those and they have an easy-to-use online system called Songfile. License fees are set by statute: 9.1 cents per copy for any song less than 5 minutes long. Fox also charges an administration fee on top of that.

Licensing the recording is another story. There's no "clearinghouse" for this, nor is there a set fee or license terms. In other words, if you want to license a recording, you have to find out who owns the recording copyright, then find out who at that company handles licenses, then negotiate with them.

That's it in very broad terms. The problem with copyright is that it varies greatly from country to country, and the rules always have exceptions. Ask more questions if you like and I'll do my best to answer.
Thanks very much for this information!

So in theory (because it would be cost-prohibitive to Don), I could buy an iTunes file and send it to Don. Don could cut a master disc, make a mold, make one copy and send it to me. Don's master and mold could not legally be used again. I could play that record (one record) at home and all would be ok. If I want another record made of that song, I would purchase the song again on iTunes, send it to Don again, Don would cut a new master disc, make a new mold, make one copy and send it to me. Is that right?

EDIT: Or, sorry, I could technically re-send, the second time, the iTunes file I originally sent, I guess?
“The cup of tea on arrival at a country house is a thing which, as a rule, I particularly enjoy. I like the crackling logs, the shaded lights, the scent of buttered toast, the general atmosphere of leisured cosiness.”

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52089
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Re: New 78's Possibilities...

Post by 52089 »

SteveM wrote:
Thanks very much for this information!

So in theory (because it would be cost-prohibitive to Don), I could buy an iTunes file and send it to Don. Don could cut a master disc, make a mold, make one copy and send it to me. Don's master and mold could not legally be used again. I could play that record (one record) at home and all would be ok. If I want another record made of that song, I would purchase the song again on iTunes, send it to Don again, Don would cut a new master disc, make a new mold, make one copy and send it to me. Is that right?

EDIT: Or, sorry, I could technically re-send, the second time, the iTunes file I originally sent, I guess?
Yes, your example appears to be basically correct. (Sorry for the "basically", but like I said, this is not cut-and-dried). The master and mold could theoretically be used for multiple copies, but they would all have to go to you and you could not legally transfer them to anyone else. The intent of the "copy" rule was to allow you to make backups so that (for example) you could have a tape copy for when your vinyl copy wore out. However, the language does not explicitly say that the copies can only be used when the original is no longer playable. That means you can play the vinyl at home and the tape in your car and still be in compliance. It's a similar idea to ripping a CD to your computer. If you ever sell the CD, you're supposed to delete the MP3s from your computer as well.

Along these lines, there are people who will make a 78 acetate for you of an iTunes/MP3 file, but of course those don't hold up to steel needles for more than a few plays.

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alang
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Re: New 78's Possibilities...

Post by alang »

So to spin that iTunes example further, once Donnie has made the stamper and disk for the original customer, any future customer would only have to also purchase the same song on iTunes before getting his record "legally" from Donnie? How much does an old tune cost on iTunes? 1$ maybe? Does not seem prohibitive I think. Or am I missing something?

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Re: New 78's Possibilities...

Post by donniej »

When it comes to modern recordings, unless I can obtain written authorization from the owners of the music then it's not gonna happen. I'm currently trying to contact people from Postmodern Jukebox and Squirrel Nut Zippers (and others) and we'll see what happens. If anyone has any contacts, suggestions, etc... PLEASE share.

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Re: New 78's Possibilities...

Post by SteveM »

donniej wrote:When it comes to modern recordings, unless I can obtain written authorization from the owners of the music then it's not gonna happen. I'm currently trying to contact people from Postmodern Jukebox and Squirrel Nut Zippers (and others) and we'll see what happens. If anyone has any contacts, suggestions, etc... PLEASE share.
I can understand that. And it seems to me, idk, those bands might see it as being so cool and an interesting promotional item that they could actually choose to back the project financially and partner with you to some degree.

I bet Jack White would love to get involved in something so niche/weird and old-timey ... music meant for old machines. Imagine it totally taking off, and there's a marked resurgence of interest in wind-ups. Heck, even leading to new wind-ups (wow).

Edit: And I could envision Tom Waits jumping all over something as crazy and archaic as this with a release specifically for wind-up phonographs.
“The cup of tea on arrival at a country house is a thing which, as a rule, I particularly enjoy. I like the crackling logs, the shaded lights, the scent of buttered toast, the general atmosphere of leisured cosiness.”

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VanEpsFan1914
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Re: New 78's Possibilities...

Post by VanEpsFan1914 »

New wind-ups. More records. Bands getting involved.

THIS is what I'm talkin' about! The technology is only as dead as we allow it to be.

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SteveM
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Re: New 78's Possibilities...

Post by SteveM »

VanEpsFan1914 wrote:New wind-ups. More records. Bands getting involved.

THIS is what I'm talkin' about! The technology is only as dead as we allow it to be.
I'd venture to say that what Jack White probably REALLY wanted to do with his huge Paramount re-release was to recreate it exactly (just as he did with that Elvis record) ... shellac ... portable wind-up ... steel needles. All the way. He's obsessed with minute detail and isn't interested in things selling, just existing. AND he has the funds to make stuff happen. Perhaps he thought finding a shellac-compatible formulation was not possible. But now that he could know it exists, maybe it would be the kick that he needs.
“The cup of tea on arrival at a country house is a thing which, as a rule, I particularly enjoy. I like the crackling logs, the shaded lights, the scent of buttered toast, the general atmosphere of leisured cosiness.”

P. G. Wodehouse

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Curt A
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Re: New 78's Possibilities...

Post by Curt A »

VanEpsFan1914 wrote:New wind-ups. More records. Bands getting involved.

THIS is what I'm talkin' about! The technology is only as dead as we allow it to be.
It's great to be optimistic and there may be bands that are willing to allow 78s to be recorded, BUT financial backers and managers are looking mainly for PROFIT, which is not going to happen given the relatively small market of phonograph collectors... If they could think outside the box of business as usual, this might be looked on as a type of promotional thing that could spur interest in the music and maybe even a resurgence of interest in windup phonographs, after all what is more eco-friendly than playing music without using power to do it...?
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De Soto Frank
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Re: New 78's Possibilities...

Post by De Soto Frank »

Donnie - You might want to get in touch with folks like Vince Giordano and the Nighthawks, and Rick Benjamin and the Paragon Ragtime Orchestra about possibilities of recording / issuing their material on your new 78's.


Both of these groups / directors are obsessed with recreating and performing music from the Ragtime and early Jazz eras, and both ensembles are top-flight in performance quality.

They are also East-coast outfits - Giordano is in Metro NYC, and PRO is out of Lewisburg, PA, at Bucknell University.

I'm sure both Giordano and Benjamin would be interested in having their respective groups' music in a format playable on Victrolas, Grafonolas, and other wind-up machines.


Your efforts are remarkable.

Thanks you for your passion !
De Soto Frank

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