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 Post subject: Re: Caruso cylinders
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 10:48 pm 
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Victor V
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Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:23 am
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Location: NW Indiana B-19;VV-IV; VV-VI;VV-XVI; Edison Home B; Amberola 30; Col. BK; Magnola;
I would say just order some nice reproductions from Norman and your set. They sound clear, won't mildew or crack like wax cylinders. Caruso on cylinder is fun to listen to, but his Victrola red seals are usually found in good clean condition with minimal wear and usually at a reasonable price.


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 Post subject: Re: Caruso cylinders
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 9:24 am 
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Victor III
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This is the original cylinder that I sourced Tosca from. It came from a collection of operatic cylinders that was stored in a basement. Fortunately that basement was perfectly dry and none of the cylinders in there had even the slightest signs of mold. It was just the way you wished any cylinder to be found. I have never seen another one in the wild in such perfect condition.

This particular record came with a neat background story. Now, there is an excellent explanation why (apparently dealer himself) meticulously scraped off the printed paper from the box lid, replacing it with a handwritten one and even carefully scratched out the words "Pathé" on the cylinder's title end itself. This was the only non-Edison cylinder in all of that collection. All records came from the very same Edison wholesaler. And this Pathé cylinder was no exception. The box even has the same name tag on the side.

By that he definitely wanted to avoid his name being associated with anything else but Edison. Nevertheless, it must have been important enough to risk his Edison wholesale contract. To me, it shows how significant Caruso must have been even on cylinder these days.

To my opionion, what makes a Caruso cylinder rare in general are two factors that come together. First, especially Pathé cylinders are prone to catch mold very quickly. A good assumption that I once was given is that the ingredients, especially the stearic acid, was probably not as pure as it should have been, thus making it easier for spores to catch on. Second, due to Pathé's discontinuation of all of their cylinders as early as 1906, these records were only available for about 3 three years. Only the dubs on their sapphire records remained on the market, thus making those much more affordable today.

Another problem that I often encounter with Pathé cylinders in general is their poor technical quality. At a time when all other major manufacturers had stopped this method, Pathé would still make pantographic copies to be used as sub-masters. I don't know how far away the final recording is from the master, but I assume it is at least two dubs. Fortunately, this Tosca turned out to be one of the very Pathé's I have heard. To preserve it properly, I have never listened to the wax cylinder acoustically.

Sorry for the watermarks in the pictures but I have seen too many eBay scammers in the past who would use such photos to rip off someone.


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 Post subject: Re: Caruso cylinders
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 2:49 pm 
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Victor V
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Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:52 pm
Posts: 2128
CarlosV wrote:
I have a Pathé center-start record of Caruso singing E Lucevan le Stele, isn't it dubbed from the cylinder?


Disc was dubbed from the AICC cylinder.


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 Post subject: Re: Caruso cylinders
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 3:18 pm 
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Victor III
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2014 6:43 pm
Posts: 691
billybob62 wrote:
HisMastersVoice wrote:


Norman's site quoted above has been changed to:

https://www.phonoworks.com/

This is a listing of his current inventory. I have another Caruso cylinder , La Donna e Mobile, from him, that may have been retired and , which, I purchased on Ebay.


I just checked my cylinder of the Caruso La Donna e Mobile. It is from Norman and is labeled La Pregiata Special Series Berlin Phonoworks #6033.


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 Post subject: Re: Caruso cylinders
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 3:48 pm 
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Victor III
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Posts: 950
Yes, the La Donna e Mobile was never recorded on cylinder by Caruso. I had been relucant for 3 years to put it out but eventually did by popular demand. There used to be a well-known TV commercial here for pizza (what else?) where this take was used. The catalog no. 6033 is a reference to the Victor recording from which I did the source transfer. I don't have it listed anymore and only a few are in stock.

Yes, the center start discs are dubs from the same AICC cylinder recordings and are the exact same takes as found on cylinder, both standard and intermédiaire. The quality of the dubbed discs is surprisingly good, despite the usual rumble problems for which the discs are known for.

And to follow up with one of the initial remarks, I totally agree that although these are really early Caruso recordings, the 1902 G&T takes are known to pre-date the AICC and Zonophones which are indeed from 1903.


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 Post subject: Re: Caruso cylinders
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 5:21 pm 
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Victor III
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2014 6:43 pm
Posts: 691
WDC wrote:
Yes, the La Donna e Mobile was never recorded on cylinder by Caruso. I had been relucant for 3 years to put it out but eventually did by popular demand. There used to be a well-known TV commercial here for pizza (what else?) where this take was used. The catalog no. 6033 is a reference to the Victor recording from which I did the source transfer. I don't have it listed anymore and only a few are in stock.

Yes, the center start discs are dubs from the same AICC cylinder recordings and are the exact same takes as found on cylinder, both standard and intermédiaire. The quality of the dubbed discs is surprisingly good, despite the usual rumble problems for which the discs are known for.

And to follow up with one of the initial remarks, I totally agree that although these are really early Caruso recordings, the 1902 G&T takes are known to pre-date the AICC and Zonophones which are indeed from 1903.


Thanks, Norman. I always wondered about the La Donna. It went for a very good price to the seller which goes with previous statements of mine that your cylinders will become rare and very desirable in their own right to future collectors.


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 Post subject: Re: Caruso cylinders
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 5:54 pm 
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Victor IV
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Location: SF Bay Area, Calif.
WDC wrote:
This is the original cylinder that I sourced Tosca from.


That is fascinating, Norman! Thanks for that detail. I'm very happy to have your reissue of this cylinder. It sounds amazing.


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 Post subject: Re: Caruso cylinders
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 4:26 am 
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Victor III
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 6:18 am
Posts: 846
WDC wrote:

Yes, the center start discs are dubs from the same AICC cylinder recordings and are the exact same takes as found on cylinder, both standard and intermédiaire. The quality of the dubbed discs is surprisingly good, despite the usual rumble problems for which the discs are known for.



Thanks for the info, Norman and Wolfe. In comparison with the G&Ts, the Pathé recording sounds more remote, maybe due to the dubbing, but otherwise is listenable. I have the same recording issued later by Pathé in a edge start disc probably from early 20s, but it sounds worse than the center start issued years before.


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 Post subject: Re: Caruso cylinders
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 5:19 am 
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Victor I
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Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:30 am
Posts: 153
Location: Italy
This is a video from my cylinder copy of La donna è mobile. It was released in a yellow edition.

Attachment:

[ Play Quicktime file ] Caruso - La donna è mobile.mov [ 58.73 MiB | Viewed 260 times ]
Victor Monarch, Columbia BK, Columbia BNW, Zonophone model 3, HMV 130


Last edited by doublemike on Sun May 27, 2018 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Caruso cylinders
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 5:06 pm 
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Victor III
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2014 6:43 pm
Posts: 691
billybob62 wrote:
WDC wrote:
Yes, the La Donna e Mobile was never recorded on cylinder by Caruso. I had been relucant for 3 years to put it out but eventually did by popular demand. There used to be a well-known TV commercial here for pizza (what else?) where this take was used. The catalog no. 6033 is a reference to the Victor recording from which I did the source transfer. I don't have it listed anymore and only a few are in stock.

Yes, the center start discs are dubs from the same AICC cylinder recordings and are the exact same takes as found on cylinder, both standard and intermédiaire. The quality of the dubbed discs is surprisingly good, despite the usual rumble problems for which the discs are known for.

And to follow up with one of the initial remarks, I totally agree that although these are really early Caruso recordings, the 1902 G&T takes are known to pre-date the AICC and Zonophones which are indeed from 1903.


Thanks, Norman. I always wondered about the La Donna. It went for a very good price to the seller which goes with previous statements of mine that your cylinders will become rare and very desirable in their own right to future collectors.


Norman, is there an 84005 floating around ?
There is a gap there. Perhaps you are reserving that number for something unannounced.
Thanks for all that you do for us
John


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