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 Post subject: Re: Mark Twain recording ($$$)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:17 pm 
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Victor V
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tinovanderzwan wrote:
Starkton wrote:
tinovanderzwan wrote:
since the discovery of the once thought lost jullius block cylinders found in one of the many kgb archive outpost

The Julius Block cylinders were not lost, but stolen from a German archive. The Berlin Phonogram Archive, to which the cylinders were given by Block's widow, had early on researched the whereabouts of their collection, now stored in St. Petersburg.


they where not stolen but conviscated by the russians somwhere in the time of 1945 to 1947
the nazi's divided the collection in several parts and where moved to multiple locations in 1944 parts stayed in berlin others where re-located to silesia (now poland) another part was in bern (capitol of switserland) and survived the war unscaved and un re-located(aldough identification is still scetchy and the recordings in the bern collection still are uncatalogued)
i was talking about the part of the collection that stayed in berlin
most parts of the block collection are still lost aldough the bibliothekarin in bern might have a sample of the collection but more research is needed

the nazi's broke up the block collection so that it wouln't be bombed all at the same time in my view a smart move since a part atleast is still here and my hunch is that more might pop up in the future
Attachment:
26waki3_190.jpg


tino


Now, if they could only locate the Amber Room...
"The phonograph† is not of any commercial value."
Thomas Alva Edison - Comment to his assistant, Samuel Insull.

"No one needs a Victrola XX, a Perfected Graphophone Type G, or whatever you call those noisy things."
My Wife


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Twain recording ($$$)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:05 am 
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Victor III
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:00 am
Posts: 985
tinovanderzwan wrote:
the nazi's broke up the block collection so that it wouln't be bombed all at the same time

This is not the case. The collection of 359 cylinders was first offered to the Berlin Phonogramm-Archive by Nancy Block, Julius' widow. Of these, 170 cylinders were chosen by the Berlin staff in 1935 to be included in the archive holdings. Then, Nancy divided the balance between archives in Warsaw and Bern.

The whole collection of the Berlin Phonogramm-Archive (thousands of cylinders and discs) was relocated to Silesia in 1944/45 from where it came to Russia as "stolen art." Most of it was later returned to the former GDR, but the Block cylinders (now 162) and several dozen shellac discs remained in St. Petersburg.

It is generally accepted that the part of the collection which Nancy Block gave to Warsaw was lost during the war. In the early 1990s two dozen Block cylinders were auctioned in London and sold to Allen Koenigsberg. With the exception of two specimen, which were reissued on the Marston CD box, all are undocumented, and it is still unknown from where these came from. Certainly not from Russia, and most likely not from Warsaw.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Twain recording ($$$)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:16 am 
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Victor III
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During my life I have seen silent movies - once thought to be lost forever since decades - magically resurfacing from some never-heard-before movie library in South America, North Africa, Planet Mars, (add whatever you want here...).

So I also add myself to the list of those who think that Mark Twain's voice will be heard again on a cylinder, sooner or later. All we need is some graduating student writing a thesis in God-knows-what, and sent by some professor down in the vaults of a library to dig through crates of stuff forgotten by centuries.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Twain recording ($$$)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:36 am 
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Victor II
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:59 pm
Posts: 320
Starkton wrote:
tinovanderzwan wrote:
the nazi's broke up the block collection so that it wouln't be bombed all at the same time

This is not the case. The collection of 359 cylinders was first offered to the Berlin Phonogramm-Archive by Nancy Block, Julius' widow. Of these, 170 cylinders were chosen by the Berlin staff in 1935 to be included in the archive holdings. Then, Nancy divided the balance between archives in Warsaw and Bern.

The whole collection of the Berlin Phonogramm-Archive (thousands of cylinders and discs) was relocated to Silesia in 1944/45 from where it came to Russia as "stolen art." Most of it was later returned to the former GDR, but the Block cylinders (now 162) and several dozen shellac discs remained in St. Petersburg.

It is generally accepted that the part of the collection which Nancy Block gave to Warsaw was lost during the war. In the early 1990s two dozen Block cylinders were auctioned in London and sold to Allen Koenigsberg. With the exception of two specimen, which were reissued on the Marston CD box, all are undocumented, and it is still unknown from where these came from. Certainly not from Russia, and most likely not from Warsaw.


again you are not really reading what i wrote i was talking about the cylinders that stayed in berlin
i had explained about the dividing that hapened before the war and also about the conviscation by the russians
so where both right the difference lies in the interpetation of the details


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Twain recording ($$$)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:25 am 
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Victor III
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:00 am
Posts: 985
tinovanderzwan wrote:
the difference lies in the interpetation of the details

Yes, obviously. I try to explain my differences with your interpretation using the following sentence as an example:

tinovanderzwan wrote:
the nazi's divided the collection in several parts and where moved to multiple locations in 1944 parts stayed in berlin others where re-located to silesia (now poland) another part was in bern

1. The "Nazi's" didn't divide the collection. It was Nancy Block, in Switzerland, who gave it to three archives in Berlin, Bern and Warsaw.

2. It was 1935 that the collection was moved to these three archives, not 1944.

3. The whole of the Berlin part of the Block collection was relocated to Silesia in 1944/45. Nothing stayed in Berlin.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Twain recording ($$$)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:42 pm 
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Victor II
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:59 pm
Posts: 320
Starkton wrote:
tinovanderzwan wrote:
the difference lies in the interpetation of the details

Yes, obviously. I try to explain my differences with your interpretation using the following sentence as an example:

tinovanderzwan wrote:
the nazi's divided the collection in several parts and where moved to multiple locations in 1944 parts stayed in berlin others where re-located to silesia (now poland) another part was in bern

1. The "Nazi's" didn't divide the collection. It was Nancy Block, in Switzerland, who gave it to three archives in Berlin, Bern and Warsaw.

2. It was 1935 that the collection was moved to these three archives, not 1944.

3. The whole of the Berlin part of the Block collection was relocated to Silesia in 1944/45. Nothing stayed in Berlin.



1 before the war

2 before the war (but noted thanks!)

3 already mentioned silesia and relocation in 1944

4 already said we where both right

5 i was wrong in certain details you pointed out thanks! where all here to learn from each other on this forum!

6 can i go home now?! jawn!


tino


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Twain recording ($$$)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:14 pm 
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Victor O
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:13 pm
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Location: Macungie, PA
I am watching Ken Burns' PBS series on Mark Twain, and given the interest in him, the number of scholars who have studied him, the interest in the Ken Burns series, it seems that if these recordings did exist in the National Archives or Smithsonian, someone, somewhere would have found them by now. Has an effort been made by a scholar to find these recordings? I would think that several attempts have been made to locate them by now. Could I be wrong?

With regards to the Bettini Archive, you would think a scholar somewhere would make an attempt to gain access to these and search them. The value of this recording would make it worthwhile.

Obviously, if located in the National Archives or Smithsonian, these are owned by the American taxpayers, and, therefore, monetary value is irrelevant. However, if an original recording of Mark Twain were identified, and held in private possession, what would the monetary value of such a recording be?


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Twain recording ($$$)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 10:34 pm 
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Victor IV
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I remember reading that Twain tried to record one of his novels on the phonograph, and after seeing how many blanks it took quit doing so. Perhaps the cylinders did exist, and some collector was like "oh these home recordings..... I will just shave these off and record something else." The only original North American cylinder, I own is blank, and my thought to myself is how could someone do that! And now my brain is wondering, could that have contained Mark Twain. And just finishing out the Buddy Bolden project, I wonder when the shed was torn down in 1960 if someone took the Bolden cylinders and what happened to them, were they destroyed when they tor the shed down?? The model B Standard that recorded Bolden still exists. And with collectors ignorance to thinking everything is fraud, I don't think anyone would recognize real historical cylinders for what they are in the wild, and not in some University or museum collection. Makes you think twice about shaving any brown wax!!!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Twain recording ($$$)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:51 am 
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Victor II
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:59 pm
Posts: 320
edisonphonoworks wrote:
I remember reading that Twain tried to record one of his novels on the phonograph, and after seeing how many blanks it took quit doing so. Perhaps the cylinders did exist, and some collector was like "oh these home recordings..... I will just shave these off and record something else." The only original North American cylinder, I own is blank, and my thought to myself is how could someone do that! And now my brain is wondering, could that have contained Mark Twain. And just finishing out the Buddy Bolden project, I wonder when the shed was torn down in 1960 if someone took the Bolden cylinders and what happened to them, were they destroyed when they tor the shed down?? The model B Standard that recorded Bolden still exists. And with collectors ignorance to thinking everything is fraud, I don't think anyone would recognize real historical cylinders for what they are in the wild, and not in some University or museum collection. Makes you think twice about shaving any brown wax!!!!!!!



i always digitize any cylinder that comes in however moldy they may be there still might be a chance to save something from that wall of noise through digital editing i have found quite a number of surprises this way
and if the cardrige needle play doesn't reveal anything i do a second attempt with the archivette wich narrows the spectrum of frequency's a bit and it happened more than once that an unplayable cylinder gave a faint clue what used to be on it from there through editing the faint ghostly remenance can be brought back somewhat

tino


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Twain recording ($$$)
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:28 pm 
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Victor O
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:13 pm
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Location: Macungie, PA
As alluded to in other posts, recordings of Mark Twain DID exist. Of course, a published source is better than anecdotes or observations.

From the "Explanatory Notes", Mark Twain's Autobiography, Volume 3:

"In 1877 Thomas Edison invented the first phonograph, which used metal cylinders to record sound and play it back; ten years later he began using wax cylinders. In 1888, Clemens considered using a phonograph to dictate A Connecticut Yankee, and in June of that year he visited Edison in his New Jersey laboratory. Edison later recalled that he "told a number of funny stories, some of which I recorded on the phonograph records. Unfortunately, these records were lost in the big fire which we had at this plant in 1914" (Edison to Cyril Clemens, 10 Jan 1927, photocopy in CU-MARK). In 1891 Clemens experimented with dictating The American Claimant, but was dissatisfied with the result and presumably discarded the four dozen cylinders he had filled (Library of Congress; N&J3, 386-87 nn. 289, 292; MTHL, 2: 637-42). In 1908-9, representatives of the Edison Manufacturing Company asked Clemens to make a recording for commercial distribution. Lyon noted his response on one of the letters: "This is a business matter. Very fond of Mr Edison but do not want business mixed up with friendship" (note on Martin to Dyer, 10 Aug 1908, CU-MARK)."

So, here we have PROOF that Mark Twain was recorded on several occasions as early as 1888. It increases the plausibility of at least one recording existing somewhere, even though many were known to have been destroyed in a fire.

Am puzzled by why Mark Twain was recorded at the height of his popularity and yet the recordings were never released. It is almost like recording the Beatles, not releasing any recordings, only for these recordings to be destroyed decades later. It seems that these recordings should have been released as I think it surely would have been a profitable venture???


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