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 Post subject: Re: PVC sleeves and 78 RPM records.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:28 am 
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Victor V
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Location: Near NY's Capital
When I have a disc with it's nice original company or dealer sleeve, I clean the disc and place it into a new sleeve, then place the original sleeve along with it into an outer clear heavy poly sleeve just to keep them together. Perhaps overkill, but that's what I do. I've never had a problem that way at all. I do the same with my good LPs and 45s / EPs with photo sleeves. The poly doesn't ever touch the disc, so I can't see that being an issue...unless I misunderstood some earlier posts, which is entirely possible! :lol:

Sean


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 Post subject: Re: PVC sleeves and 78 RPM records.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:44 am 
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Victor III
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 6:18 am
Posts: 654
epigramophone wrote:
All my 78rpm records are stored in their original covers, either paper from the manufacturer or cardboard from the supplying dealer, and have survived in good condition for many decades. .


One caveat with the original covers is that many of them were made with acid paper, like the Victors, the Edisons etc. This is why they become brittle and crumble over time, but not only that, I'm afraid they probably release acid on the record surface as well. The dealer cardboard sleeves from the UK are much nicer, they are sturdy and most are done in brown card, which means that probably they are acid-free, as well as the later (30s) HMVs and most of the English label sleeves of the period.

Marco and Sean, you may be correct on the reaction of some types of plastic with the disc material, but it seems that the use of such reactive material on sleeves is the exception rather than the rule, otherwise I (and other collectors) would have seen it all over our collections.


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 Post subject: Re: PVC sleeves and 78 RPM records.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:08 pm 
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Victor III
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CarlosV wrote:
One caveat with the original covers is that many of them were made with acid paper, like the Victors, the Edisons etc. This is why they become brittle and crumble over time, but not only that, I'm afraid they probably release acid on the record surface as well.


That is a very good point on which I would agree. After all, a regular 78rpm record does have organic ingredients that could be very well affected by acidic paper.


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 Post subject: Re: PVC sleeves and 78 RPM records.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:04 am 
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Victor O
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:40 pm
Posts: 91
Hey folks,

In my opinion, no records, and especially no vinyl should be kept in cheap plastics like PVC, etc. Like most all plastics, they off-gas over time, releasing monomers, oligomers, solvents and compounds like phthalates and PBA that are not chemically bound to the amorphous polymers like PVC, PE, etc.

Ever wonder what that "new car smell" is?? Or why you get that film on the inside of your windshield?? Or why cheap carpets have that burnt latex smell??, yep, it's monomers, oligomers and compounds like phthalates that are off-gassing. And if you remember your chemistry fundamentals; "likes attract"; i.e. volatiles off gassing are chemically attracted to like polymers.

I am 100% sure about this with vinyl....I recently flew to Houston to look at 15,000 jazz LP's that were all purchased before 1969. I ended up only buying about 200 records as the records that were "sleeved" in plastic (i.e. inside the jacket) were mostly ruined by off-gassing, the plastic sticking and reacting with the vinyl or both. It was so sad as many of these records would have been with hundreds of dollars. Yet after 47 years in plastic, they had little market value. Last year I was offered $2000 for a rare 45 (that I had the paper cover, with the record inside, in a plastic sleeve since 1979). I sent it to the guy and due to the off-gassing deposits on the record which he could not completely remove, the price offered was $1000. A good lesson learned.

For doing record shows, shipping, or other short term reasons, they are fine. Yet over the long term, my opinion is that it's best to stick with paper or better yet, old-fashioned kraft paper, which is the material used for grocery bags and the Disc-O-File sleeves. Brown kraft is mechanically pulped; i.e. no chlorine, acids or other chemicals.

My two cents,

Ken Flaherty


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 Post subject: Re: PVC sleeves and 78 RPM records.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:00 pm 
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Victor III
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Posts: 889
Thanks for the insight, Ken! Now with LPs, I always would have the problem that pure paper sleeves tend to be quite abrasive and can already leave traces on the record surface just by normal handling. So far, I never had any of these problems yet, maybe US-American plastic sleeves are chemically different from what was used in Europe. But still, pure paper sleeves do equally give me some stomachache. Aren't there any sufficient alternatives available?


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 Post subject: Re: PVC sleeves and 78 RPM records.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:00 pm 
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Victor III
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:30 pm
Posts: 766
I have been an amateur photographer over the last 50 years with 1000s of 35mm slides and negatives in storage in Polyethylene storage sleeves.

From about 1974 thru about 1981, I stored my stuff in Polyvinyl chloride sleeves. It didn't take long before the entire photographic world realized that their PVC sleeves were coating their slides and negatives with oily goo. I used a lot of film cleaner to get the stuff off, in some cases acquiring unwanted scratches and emulsion damage. Polyethylene on the other hand seems to be quite stable and I have had no troubles with it in the last 30-35 years.

I'm shocked that PVC has again reared its ugly head. It's not good for film, it's not good for pipes, and it's not good for records. PVC=NDG!

Sorry - rant over.

Martin


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 Post subject: Re: PVC sleeves and 78 RPM records.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:23 pm 
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Victor O
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:40 pm
Posts: 91
Hi there Norman,

As we all know, with any decision, there are always assets and liabilities. Is there a prefect storage choice for cylinders, 78's and vinyl? Probably not. Yet there are sure some choices that are way better than others. Any 78 or vinyl that is important to me is going into a kraft paper sleeve.

When I can find NOS of the old dark green kraft paper sleeves, I buy all I can.....after 50 years, they are good as new and you can get them usually for 5 to 10 cents each.


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 Post subject: Re: PVC sleeves and 78 RPM records.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:48 am 
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Victor III
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F. Depero, "Grammofono", 1923.
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:19 am
Posts: 551
Location: Italy
Norman, it is not PVC itself, the problem is the plasticizers that are added to it to turn it into a flexible film.

I agree that issues with records and plastic sleeves seem much more frequent in US than in EU, which probably reflects a difference in the materials used.

Back to topic, I finally found a plastic sleeve that fits the cardboard sleeve tighter, as I desired. The seller, who also produces them (it's a paper and plastic specialised shop), said they're not made in polyethylene as I thought, but polypropylene.

OrthoSean wrote:
When I have a disc with it's nice original company or dealer sleeve, I clean the disc and place it into a new sleeve, then place the original sleeve along with it into an outer clear heavy poly sleeve just to keep them together. Perhaps overkill, but that's what I do.

Sean, it might be overkilling, but if you read again my first post that's exactly what I have in mind to do! ;)


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 Post subject: Re: PVC sleeves and 78 RPM records.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:15 am 
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Victor V
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Posts: 2097
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania
Marco Gilardetti wrote:
Norman, it is not PVC itself, the problem is the plasticizers that are added to it to turn it into a flexible film.

I agree that issues with records and plastic sleeves seem much more frequent in US than in EU, which probably reflects a difference in the materials used.

Back to topic, I finally found a plastic sleeve that fits the cardboard sleeve tighter, as I desired. The seller, who also produces them (it's a paper and plastic specialised shop), said they're not made in polyethylene as I thought, but polypropylene.



Polypropylene (PP, no. 5 if you recycle) is indeed the material rated archival for film storage; it is the food-grade plastic widely used for containers and lids (margarine, spreads, etc.). I've used PP sleeves and slide boxes for film and print storage for years without evidence of damage. For a widely available array of PP sleeves in many sizes, look for the PrintFile brand; see http://tinyurl.com/y8ba7p9p . I don't know whether they make a sleeve size suitable for our records, but their site should have the info.

NOTE: a check of the link above shows that PrintFile sleeves are polyester! And I don't find the sizes we need for phonograph records. My apologies for posting inaccurate information! If anyone knows of a source for PP sleeves, please share the info.


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 Post subject: Re: PVC sleeves and 78 RPM records.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:57 am 
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Victor III
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Posts: 889
Thank you all for the additional input. I looked up the material in the modern inner and outer sleeves that I have been using. It's all polyethylene. Through not appreciated as much as PP, it also does its job pretty well. It's practically what is widely in use here in Europe as I also checked other suppliers. So that's why I haven't encountered any problems yet. :)


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