The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

It is currently Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:58 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Polymer cylinder manufacturing
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:46 pm 
Offline
Victor II
User avatar
Joined: Wed May 03, 2017 8:52 am
Posts: 358
Location: Louisiana
I'm thinking of starting an expriement but I believe I will need some help if there is anyone willing to offer it.

I used to work at a polypropylene manufacturing facility, where we used our loop reactors to make all different kinds of product; added stabilizers and extruded them thru huge machines into pellets, from super hard military applications and vehicles to welsh grape juice bottles and yoplait yogurt cups. That being said I know a lot about them and the different stabilizers we used to attain certain hardnesses or clarity etc. I still have access to this information, and I also have the ability to acquire the poly "pellets", as it is loaded onto 283k lb railcars, and a 50lb bag of the stuff is nothing to get. I'm thinking of getting some different types, and attempting to make cylinder blanks from them. If my memory serves, I'll need to heat the poly up to 250C to get it to melt (depending on type it can be lower) and it cools very rapidly without any air bubbles and can be rather smooth without any help. However I need to figure out a mold, and also any ideas on the best way to do this or past practices. I figure with the ability to customize the hardness among other things, I think we can get a cheap replacement for wax cylinders. Or at least attempt it and see where it goes.

I'm interested in your thoughts before I spend the time to tackle such a feat. What kinds of properties would be best in a cylinder for recording and long term playability etc. I would also like the ability to shave with ease, which I think can be done.
J.F.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Polymer cylinder manufacturing
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:13 pm 
Offline
Victor I
User avatar
"The answer to life, the universe, and everything, is 42." -Deep Thought
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:45 pm
Posts: 125
I've done some reading, and polypropylene is certainly quite versatile. I wonder, though, how well would plastic like that record? You mentioned that the softness can be altered, but to what degree so that a decent recording can be made? And one more thing. Would you construct this from pure polypropylene, or have a core of some kind? This seems like a great idea with the information you've given us, and that I've read.

Good Luck!
SOUSA, The March King, says:

"Your 'VICTOR' and 'MONARCH' Records are all right."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Polymer cylinder manufacturing
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:47 pm 
Offline
Victor II
User avatar
Joined: Wed May 03, 2017 8:52 am
Posts: 358
Location: Louisiana
Victor A wrote:
I've done some reading, and polypropylene is certainly quite versatile. I wonder, though, how well would plastic like that record? You mentioned that the softness can be altered, but to what degree so that a decent recording can be made? And one more thing. Would you construct this from pure polypropylene, or have a core of some kind? This seems like a great idea with the information you've given us, and that I've read.

Good Luck!


That's the big question...how well will it record. I know some on YouTube have dabbled and been successful. I would think I would be able to construct it from pure poly, but I would like to expriement. Some of the plastics can be made extremely light, so that will be interesting as well. The softness can be altered quite a bit, to something so runny it's like water when melted to where it's so hard it'll break shear pins the size of my arm on HUGE gear pumps that push it thru the extruder...which is a big difference.
For an idea what we used this stuff for I included some examples off the website. I need to figure out a mold though.


Attachments:
IMG_3852.PNG
IMG_3852.PNG [ 1.21 MiB | Viewed 461 times ]
IMG_3853.PNG
IMG_3853.PNG [ 1.58 MiB | Viewed 461 times ]
IMG_3854.PNG
IMG_3854.PNG [ 527.43 KiB | Viewed 461 times ]
IMG_3855.PNG
IMG_3855.PNG [ 1.43 MiB | Viewed 461 times ]
IMG_3856.PNG
IMG_3856.PNG [ 1.62 MiB | Viewed 461 times ]
IMG_3857.PNG
IMG_3857.PNG [ 1.42 MiB | Viewed 461 times ]
IMG_3858.PNG
IMG_3858.PNG [ 1.54 MiB | Viewed 461 times ]
IMG_3859.PNG
IMG_3859.PNG [ 576.78 KiB | Viewed 461 times ]
IMG_3860.PNG
IMG_3860.PNG [ 1.36 MiB | Viewed 461 times ]
J.F.
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Polymer cylinder manufacturing
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:04 am 
Offline
Victor II
User avatar
Joined: Wed May 03, 2017 8:52 am
Posts: 358
Location: Louisiana
I found these mold designs online. I'm wondering if this will work for what I'm thinking of doing if anyone has experience. I was thinking of giving this to some machinists and see if they can create it for me.


Attachments:
IMG_3862.PNG
IMG_3862.PNG [ 682.95 KiB | Viewed 347 times ]
IMG_3861.PNG
IMG_3861.PNG [ 445.64 KiB | Viewed 347 times ]
J.F.
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Polymer cylinder manufacturing
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:56 am 
Offline
Victor V
User avatar
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:17 am
Posts: 2350
Location: Where there's "hamburger ALL OVER the highway"...
I had pondered this idea once, some years ago, after reading of Henri Lioret's method of recording on celluloid.

As I don't have the technical or chemical experience for this sort of thing, I never tried to realize it; but the question remained of what sort of polymer to use. The melting point would have to be rather low, in order to soften the blank in, say hot water, as Lioret did; but the surface when cooled would have to be hard enough to withstand prolonged, repeated playing. The consistency of the material would also have to be fine and homogenous enough to allow for a clean cut and minimal surface noise. You don't want it to be too grainy or splintery to be listenable, or too rubbery to make a good cut.

More research into available polymers would be helpful: this is a project that will take much time and labor to carry out successfully. Remember, it took Edison's laboratory, and the Graphophone company, years of work to get just the right wax formula.

Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Polymer cylinder manufacturing
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:31 am 
Offline
Victor IV
User avatar
A new blank with authentic formula and spiral core!
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:50 am
Posts: 1315
Location: 615 1/2 South Main Street Princeton IL 61356.
So did you ask Chuck Richards permission to post his mold design? He is a member here, and his page is copyrighted. He does encourage experimentation though, and that is why he made the page. It is a smooth bore mold, still a great design, I have seen it work in person. I use spirals in my molds, to be a little different, however it also allows more working time, and grace when molding blanks, smooth bore molds have a smaller window of extraction time, the compound will bind while spirals decrease some pressure as the compound shrinks allowing more grace period for extraction. You will want to make your recording a few percent bigger, and the center so it can be reamed out on a reamer, to center your recording. metallic soap had the advantage you could have it cool on metal cores to keep it from distorting, of course you are talking of molding a blank of the plastic and recording on it. I would rather make a metallic soap blank and make a silicone or Nickel copper mold from the master. I know I know, you guys just want to thumb your nose at us Metallic soap enthusiasts.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Polymer cylinder manufacturing
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:28 am 
Online
Auxetophone
User avatar
TMF Administrator
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:01 am
Posts: 1877
Location: Ferndale, MI
edisonphonoworks wrote:
So did you ask Chuck Richards permission to post his mold design? He is a member here, and his page is copyrighted.


You don't need permission to re-post something that's publically available on the internet as long as you cite the source. Since we can see the URL in his screen shots I'd say that's sufficient citation.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Polymer cylinder manufacturing
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:47 am 
Offline
Victor IV
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:54 pm
Posts: 1913
HisMastersVoice wrote:
edisonphonoworks wrote:
So did you ask Chuck Richards permission to post his mold design? He is a member here, and his page is copyrighted.


You don't need permission to re-post something that's publically available on the internet as long as you cite the source. Since we can see the URL in his screen shots I'd say that's sufficient citation.


That's generally true for a short excerpt, which would be covered under "fair use". Reposting several pages of material without permission is not "fair use", even if properly cited.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Polymer cylinder manufacturing
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:49 am 
Offline
Victor II
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 3:46 pm
Posts: 238
Location: Philadelphia, PA
At 250*C, you're venturing beyond the ratings of silicones. You may need to have a metal mold made via electroplating.
I have quite a bit of experience with polyurethane, silicone and PTFE. If I can be of any assistance, please PM me.

Poly plastics are great. Metallic soaps are great. Shellac is great. It all comes down to cost and whaf materials we know how to work with.
The Berliner Archive Project:
Lend me your Berliners to be molded and get your originals back plus free copies!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Polymer cylinder manufacturing
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:12 pm 
Offline
Victor III
User avatar
Richards Laboratories http://www.richardslaboratories.com producing high quality cylinder blanks
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:28 pm
Posts: 636
Polymer, Schmolymer!

In my humble opinion you are wasting your time with that idea.

There is a reason that it took Jonas Aylesworth well over 1000 tests
and experiments to find the brown wax formula.

But hey, knock yourself out, if that's what you like to do.

I am just saying that I know what works, and what is highly likely
NOT to work.
"Sustained success depends on searching
for, and gaining, fundamental understanding"

-Bell System Credo


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Americanized by Maël Soucaze.