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 Post subject: Re: Polymer cylinder manufacturing
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:23 pm 
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Victor IV
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Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:23 am
Posts: 1854
Location: NW Indiana B-19;VV-IV; VV-VI;VV-XI;VV-XVI; Edison Home B; Amberola 30; Col. BK; Magnola;
I think it is all about fun. We live and learn. Back in the 1980's Dennis and Patti put out some cylinders called Electrophone cylinders, essentially they were a vinyl type cylinder record that was great for its time, which beat wearing out a good wax cylinder. In the early 2000's, Vulcan came out with some really nice hard wearing resin cylinders that in my opinion are better than Electrophones. Now we have Edisonia and Berlin Phonoworks which also make great hard wearing cylinders, they all prove it can be done.

For years, I never thought a 78 needle type record could be made from resin and be played with a steel needle. Thanks to Don, this is now possible.

In this hobby there is plenty of room for experiment and competition. I don't think a few people alone can take on the huge job of making reproduction records.


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 Post subject: Re: Polymer cylinder manufacturing
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:46 pm 
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Victor II
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Posts: 358
Location: Louisiana
Man all the responses! It’s gonna take me a little while to go thru them all. I keep forgetting we no longer have email updates and I haven’t been back to the post till just now.

What I’m thinking what I may learn to do to start myself off in this hobby is start by making some brown wax or the metallic soap. Get that somewhat down before I try other methods. I was preface all this by saying I’m not in this to make any money, I just think it would be cool to try, and if I’m successful...awesome!! And I can make blanks to take to schools and museums when I do little shows for participants to keep without hurting my wallet too much.

I’m going to read thru the responses now. If someone is willing to conversate with me about the wax process and what you found works best and where I should start that would be amazing. Should I try to recreate his mold or find something else?
J.F.


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 Post subject: Re: Polymer cylinder manufacturing
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:28 pm 
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Victor II
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Joined: Wed May 03, 2017 8:52 am
Posts: 358
Location: Louisiana
After reading the responses I just want to say I didn’t mean to start any drama by asking about polymers or anything like that. I have just recently joined the forum and many of you I have never met or heard of before or knew that y’all made blank cylinders. Only person I knew of was Paul Morris. That being said I have no intention whatsoever of monetizing this or anything, I just thought it may be a fun expriement to collaborate with someone on, as I have a lot of time off work, and would like to do something productive and perhaps give back to the community that has helped me so much, even if it’s a bunch of failed data! At least everyone will know what doesn’t work! Haha

I think I should at least try to do wax first, and I may find I don’t enjoy it. Then try other methods. Coming from a chemical manufacturing background it sounded like a fun idea. Now I work in a chlorine and Caustic manufacturing facility and there’s not much I can do with that knowledge! :) a lot of y’all have been in this hobby longer than I’ve been alive, and I totally respect that!!

If anyone would like to reach out to me and help me get started I’d much appreciate it as it sounds fun, and would be really cool to do as science fair stuff with my son when he’s older. I honestly don’t know where to start, and when I googled about it Chucks website came up and that’s where I started reading...but got quickly confused lol
J.F.


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 Post subject: Re: Polymer cylinder manufacturing
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:16 pm 
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Victor II
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Joined: Wed May 03, 2017 8:52 am
Posts: 358
Location: Louisiana
something I do need to figure out....is usually MF or melt flow represents the hardness with lower the number the harder the product. I may contact sales for the manufacturing side and see if:
1) I can send them a wax blank and see if they can test it compared to their current products, or if it can be closely replicated.
2) How the MF corresponds with the Shore hardness chart and where to start there.

A MF of .75 was extremely hard, and was thick and heavy, where as a MF of 100 was like water when melted and ran everywhere, but wasn't uniform when solidified and would "feather" if that makes sense and create a dust almost. So there is a wide range to work with.
J.F.


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 Post subject: Re: Polymer cylinder manufacturing
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:38 pm 
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Victor III
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Richards Laboratories http://www.richardslaboratories.com producing high quality cylinder blanks
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:28 pm
Posts: 636
Donnie J:

Thanks for posting the picture of your first mold and of the casting
it made!

Seeing as how you already have some experience and knowledge about
fatty acids and soaps, then the whole process of making brown wax from
scratch should be understandable for you.

EdisonWizard:

You are off to a good start. I encourage you and Donnie J. both to take the time to
thoroughly investigate all of the information I have put out there about
this entire process in a great amount of detail. It's all posted
on my website http://www.richardslaboratories.com

Not only is the entire process entirely detailed there, but the whole theory
of why it all works the way it does, is also included.

My website is the site I wished was there when I started making brown wax back
in the summer of 2009. This was after I'd been working with recording
on Edison cylinders using Dictaphone blanks since 1978. My plan had always been
to learn as much as I can about everything having to do with recording
on Edison cylinders. The first part of that was learning how to
rebuild recorders, and how to use them. Then there was also learning
how to shave them on a Dictaphone shaver. Let's face it: If a person
wishes to make blanks, one MUST be able to record on them, shave them,
listen to them. How else would they be evaluated?

Study everything written and posted on my website, then I'll be more than
happy to discuss any and all details with you guys.

I put all of the info out there so that it can benefit everyone.
I also have no fears that by doing so, that my cash-flow coming in from
selling my blanks at $50 each will be affected in the slightest.

This is because of the fact that when it comes to making decent quality
brown wax recording blanks which are sensitive and also have a quiet,
smooth recording surface, that does not come easily nor quickly to anyone.

Indeed, most people who have ever tried it, stop doing it because they find
out what a massive undertaking it is!

This is a process much like natural selection.

The making of proper brown wax Edison cylinder recording blanks is
guarded by chemistry, and the laws of physics. The universe itself guards
this realm leaving it open only to those who come and stay long enough
to learn it. That naturally excludes 99.999999999999999999% of the human population
on the earth.

But what the heck, give it a try if you want to.... :)

Wizard, I think you are worrying a bit too much about things which
really have not much to do with your end result. If you really want to
spend your time worrying about such things as "Shore Hardness" or other types
of data that sound good in a textbook, but have very little application to
the making of these blanks, then fine. But just keep in mind that there
are an infinite series of blind alleys and side-tracks that can use up
your valuable time and distract you from the goal of making good blanks
that work right.

Commercially available stearic acids have much data such as saponification
value and other applicable specs. such as "iodine value".
So do the commercially available varieties of ceresin wax.
They always have a "needle value" assigned, which
relates to the hardness.

There are many, many varieties and different brands of stearic, ceresin, and lye.

Look on my website and see how I take a wax sample and analyze it.
The free-stearic content remaining in the finished wax acts as an
agent which influences the overall capillarity of the liquid wax.
At the proper high capillarity, the wax sample gets distinctly turned up
at the edges. It has a very low surface tension. The free stearic content
acts as a wetting agent and also as a flux.

Your brown wax must be runny and very liquid at pour-time. Wet as water
and dark as the blackest coffee. The hardness can be seen and felt by
looking at how it cuts and breaks. Study my website.
"Sustained success depends on searching
for, and gaining, fundamental understanding"

-Bell System Credo


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 Post subject: Re: Polymer cylinder manufacturing
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:05 pm 
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Victor II
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Joined: Wed May 03, 2017 8:52 am
Posts: 358
Location: Louisiana
Chuck wrote:
Donnie J:

Thanks for posting the picture of your first mold and of the casting
it made!

Seeing as how you already have some experience and knowledge about
fatty acids and soaps, then the whole process of making brown wax from
scratch should be understandable for you.

EdisonWizard:

You are off to a good start. I encourage you and Donnie J. both to take the time to
thoroughly investigate all of the information I have put out there about
this entire process in a great amount of detail. It's all posted
on my website http://www.richardslaboratories.com

Not only is the entire process entirely detailed there, but the whole theory
of why it all works the way it does, is also included.

My website is the site I wished was there when I started making brown wax back
in the summer of 2009. This was after I'd been working with recording
on Edison cylinders using Dictaphone blanks since 1978. My plan had always been
to learn as much as I can about everything having to do with recording
on Edison cylinders. The first part of that was learning how to
rebuild recorders, and how to use them. Then there was also learning
how to shave them on a Dictaphone shaver. Let's face it: If a person
wishes to make blanks, one MUST be able to record on them, shave them,
listen to them. How else would they be evaluated?

Study everything written and posted on my website, then I'll be more than
happy to discuss any and all details with you guys.

I put all of the info out there so that it can benefit everyone.
I also have no fears that by doing so, that my cash-flow coming in from
selling my blanks at $50 each will be affected in the slightest.

This is because of the fact that when it comes to making decent quality
brown wax recording blanks which are sensitive and also have a quiet,
smooth recording surface, that does not come easily nor quickly to anyone.

Indeed, most people who have ever tried it, stop doing it because they find
out what a massive undertaking it is!

This is a process much like natural selection.

The making of proper brown wax Edison cylinder recording blanks is
guarded by chemistry, and the laws of physics. The universe itself guards
this realm leaving it open only to those who come and stay long enough
to learn it. That naturally excludes 99.999999999999999999% of the human population
on the earth.

But what the heck, give it a try if you want to.... :)

Wizard, I think you are worrying a bit too much about things which
really have not much to do with your end result. If you really want to
spend your time worrying about such things as "Shore Hardness" or other types
of data that sound good in a textbook, but have very little application to
the making of these blanks, then fine. But just keep in mind that there
are an infinite series of blind alleys and side-tracks that can use up
your valuable time and distract you from the goal of making good blanks
that work right.

Commercially available stearic acids have much data such as saponification
value and other applicable specs. such as "iodine value".
So do the commercially available varieties of ceresin wax.
They always have a "needle value" assigned, which
relates to the hardness.

There are many, many varieties and different brands of stearic, ceresin, and lye.

Look on my website and see how I take a wax sample and analyze it.
The free-stearic content remaining in the finished wax acts as an
agent which influences the overall capillarity of the liquid wax.
At the proper high capillarity, the wax sample gets distinctly turned up
at the edges. It has a very low surface tension. The free stearic content
acts as a wetting agent and also as a flux.

Your brown wax must be runny and very liquid at pour-time. Wet as water
and dark as the blackest coffee. The hardness can be seen and felt by
looking at how it cuts and breaks. Study my website.


Thanks Chuck for all the awesome information. Your website has so much info...its gonna take me a while to get it all in this thick skull! I have a lot to learn...I appreciate you taking the time to give me advice. I still have to learn what some of these words mean :)

If you don't mind, I may bring your mold designs to a machine shop in town and see if that's something they can make; or maybe I can make something close to just get started. Maybe im wrong, but I feel getting the wax right would be more important right now than getting a good mold. Im really excited about trying something new. I hope I can learn something from all this and get my son involved in one way or another.
J.F.


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 Post subject: Re: Polymer cylinder manufacturing
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:27 pm 
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Victor IV
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:08 pm
Posts: 1377
Location: Grosse Pointe, MI
Wizard,

You state, "Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel getting the wax right would be more important right now than getting a good mold."

I think if you reread Chuck's comments, you'll see that he insists that you don't know if you've gotten the wax right until you make a mold and try to record on the blank. You can melt down a box of candles and call it good, but until you try to mold it and record on it you really don't know.


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 Post subject: Re: Polymer cylinder manufacturing
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:45 pm 
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Victor II
User avatar
Joined: Wed May 03, 2017 8:52 am
Posts: 358
Location: Louisiana
JerryVan wrote:
Wizard,

You state, "Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel getting the wax right would be more important right now than getting a good mold."

I think if you reread Chuck's comments, you'll see that he insists that you don't know if you've gotten the wax right until you make a mold and try to record on the blank. You can melt down a box of candles and call it good, but until you try to mold it and record on it you really don't know.


Oh okay, I understand what you’re saying. There’s a lot of info there and I’m at work!
J.F.


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 Post subject: Re: Polymer cylinder manufacturing
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:21 pm 
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Victor IV
User avatar
A new blank with authentic formula and spiral core!
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:50 am
Posts: 1315
Location: 615 1/2 South Main Street Princeton IL 61356.
I might have been a little crass , sorry. Anyhow, in a more positive direction. I have sent you some information of wax formula,and molding. This is about the place where I started from, with a mold like my early one, and then progressing to the over sized spiral mold. And I again reference Chuck Richards, website. He has it, right, and it works, and for metallic soap I know nothing better. Possibly a lead montan wax formula, but that is not health. You will have to adapt it somewhat to whatever mold your next step is, materials of molds change the pre heat, and such but the method of making the wax, is very good. We have discussed this at length, Mr. Richards and I ,and really think that their is nothing better for metallic soap that is safe to make, than this method. I have a few differences, as I add the temper , in another step, after the soap portion has hardened and resumed room temperature throughout, usually a day later. And I then give it two 10 minute conditioning heat and cool cycles (conditioning the compound) before molding blanks, other than a slight difference in aluminum and lye proportions, and it is only slightly different, all else is the same as Mr. Richards.


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 Post subject: Re: Polymer cylinder manufacturing
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:48 pm 
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Victor IV
User avatar
A new blank with authentic formula and spiral core!
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:50 am
Posts: 1315
Location: 615 1/2 South Main Street Princeton IL 61356.
I sent this as a private message to Donnie J and Wizard. I don't mind sharing, as I really want to use what I do for educational purposes. This is a crash course in wax making. These also contain various acceptable ranges of the components. And of course http://www.richardslaboratories.com/ind ... ndard-form I can't stress enough Mr. Richards website.

Always remember safety Fist Have heavy gloves, or chemical resistant gloves when making hydrated alumina. Safety glasses are important. Have a fire extinguisher handy, (if you need to use a fire extiquisher, a lid must be put on, or when it gets oxygen it will re-ignite if over the flash point, 288 C about 550 it will catch afire The soap making portion does get up to 270C or 518F.) and make sure you have a sturdy lid and covers for all openings on the vessel that you make the compound in Usually covering the vessel, if on fire, and putting a metal weight over it, will smother the fire and it will be out, NEVER make the compound in an open shallow container, It will catch on fire, (experience speaks) always use something with high sides, and narrow a coffe pot, a high sided cast iron kettle (make a heavy gauge custom lid) . It can and will catch on fire sometime, so be prepared. NEVER leave the compound when working on it, out of your sight, you should be in arms distance of it at all times! Do not make less than 300 grams of compound, the smaller the batch the harder to control the temperature. When molding cylinders, clean the mold, well so wax does not drip off and catch on fire, in the oven or pre-heating apparatus.


The soap portion

stearic acid 93.173 % (408 grams)
sodium hydroxide 6.5% (29 grams)
Aluminum .327% (1.45 grams AL)

Ceresin, paraffin, or beeswax, or montan wax may be used to temper the wax, as a moisture proof, and The percentage is an added amount. Paraffin, is 19.5% as found in Ediphone cylinders, Ceresin 12.9-18.4%, the softer the stearic the less ceresin or paraffin wax.
The percentages can be used for any qty of metallic soap.

First off in a stainless steel medium sauce pan, put in 16 oz of distilled water (if making triple, then increase only 32 oz, and triple additions of hydrated alumina from Richards, oz portion sheet and use a larger container. Tje)
heat the water until it is warm, and steaming a little but not boiling, and add the sodium hydroxide carefully, it will boil and act violently so be careful. Next (I use Reynolds Wrap aluminum foil in the proportion and weight stated) You can change the hardness of the soap by using anything from .25-.50 % and yes that is one quarter to one half of one percent, I find that from .3-.48% yields good wax, if you want to fine tune your compound you can experiment with this range. Rip the aluminum in small strips, adding a little at at time to the solution it will dissolve it, and you will see a silver, green tinge to the solution, very slight. The fumes at this point are bad, so used a mask, or do this outside. You can do it without heating if you want as the sodium hydroxide heats the solution too, I heat it for my use, Mr. Richards does not heat it. Next, while still warm, you need to start filtering the solution, I filter it through 2 coffee filter 3 times the first day, and let it set overnight, and then filter two more times. Wear gloves the solution has sodium hydroxide and thus caustic. Next add ¾ of your stearic acid, and heat it to 190C and follow Mr. Richards, addition sheet, adjust the proportions to the amount of wax you want to make. You should make this outside, and in a tall, pot like an old aluminum coffee pot.
http://www.richardslaboratories.com/ind ... ndard-form You will have to make a similar standard form, or use Mr. Richards amounts of components. The above are from Edison/Aylsworth useful data formula from circa 1893.

Adjust this data sheet to your proportions, and follow the times. If you change proportions to more, about 2 minutes more time will be OK, per addition. When you add the solution to the stearic, it climbs up the side of the vessel, and foams like root beer. The next addition is made when the solution reaches the desired temperature, and mostly ceases to have bubbles and is in a placid state, the adding causes the temperature to go down, and then it comes up, to the target temperature, maintain it, until bubbles cease, and then add the next portion of solution. It repeats, thus the temp going down and coming up the the desired temp, bubbles ceasing and adding more solution. You must make sure your container is able to take 3 times the capacity that you want to make, as the wax expands 3 times the amount of the wax, as it is "foaming Off" . You slowly increase the heat as you go, however most of it is the natural tendency of the wax. Adding the last of the solution, the wax is dark, and somewhat like syrup in consistency. If at the end is some bubbles and not fully quiescent it is ok, as when the 10 minute stearic cook in is added, it will absorb the bubbles and be quiescent It will be runny, and flow nicely when finished, just near the congealing point it may be jell like and stretchy, before it becomes hard. What I do differently than Mr. Richards is I let the soap portion of the wax cool overnight, and then heat the soap up to 220 C and carefully melt the ceresin separately until it is just melted, and pour it into the soap portion. I cook it for 10 minutes, and then shut the wax off. I heat it after it is stone cold once more to 232C (450) for 10 minutes, and shut heat off, and then the wax is ready so two conditions on the soap portion and one condition on the temper portion.

Ceresin should have a melt point of 130-140 F , and proportions from 12-19% is good, 17.4 is good for triple pressed animal tallow stearic, and 18.2% good for triple pressed palm stearic.

Remember wax making is dangerous, and the compound can and at times will catch fire, especially after the bubbles have dissipated, as it no longer has water for the lower temperature, so careful temperature control is a must.

My mold core is 7.5" long for the usable taper (8" total), with a ½" knurled top portion. The bottom of the core is 1.7005" diameter and 1.9155" is the top diameter of my mold before the knob at the very top with the knob it is 1.938" .030 is the depth of the spiral that transverses the mold core, it is a double start, right handed ½ thread per inch helix. The taper faces down. It screws into the base that has a raised portion of 1/32 of an inch. If you do not have spirals in the core, I suggest extending the taper ½" more at the small end. My mold tube is 7" long, however I would suggest putting a t handle on top of the mold, and extending the tube above the mandrel, to lessen further bubbles. I pre heat the mold at 375F and pour in the wax at 450F or (232), my mold is all steel and that is how it works. Lots of problems arise in making wax, such as stars, crystals and streaks, most of the time, a gentle re melt of the wax cures this problem, and a low humidity is good. Sometimes 1% or thereabouts addition of free stearic, can correct the problem (melted in at 232 C), if it is over saponified. MR. Richards in his website has also directions for scrap wax, recondition steps.



Some formulas



Batch Similar to Chuck Richards Oils Fats and Waxes handbook by Friar and Weston.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89097688915

Another formula.


266.6122502499632 grams stearic acid
21.0 grams lye
0.734711678347276 grams aluminum
58.0 grams of ceresin for 17.4 % ceresin.



799.8367507498896 G Stearic acid for triple batch
63.0 G Lye
2.204135035041828 G Aluminum
174.0 G ceresin

1039.040885784931 Total batch weight



16oz water is 473.176 ml of water

Molding, My mold is heated for 1 hour (it is steel some days 350 works and other time 375. The wax is poured in at 232C or 450 F. It takes different times to pull the core, 70 minutes is usual for my mold, and on colder days 65 minutes. At 450 pre heat (it makes my spirals drippy in my mold, but should not be a problem in a smooth bore) it would take 90 minutes roughly to remove the core. Again more data on RL website for more in depth.


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