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 Post subject: Electric Edison DD's play at 78 rpm?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:20 am 
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Victor IV
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I remember Ron Dethlefson telling us that about the time Edison started to make 78 rpm needle-cut records, they also started to record Edison Diamond Discs at 78 rpm instead of 80 rpm. It makes sense, doesn't it? Does anyone know for sure at what serial number the 78 rpm Diamond Discs start?


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 Post subject: Re: Electric Edison DD's play at 78 rpm?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:13 am 
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Victor V
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There are many DDs that don't play at 80, listen with a pitch pipe and you'd be surprised how many play at 78, 76, 82...etc. A Duke Yellman disc I have has to play at 74 to be in any key at all.

As for Ron D., I believe it was anything with a matrix number over about 19000. Again, there are exceptions to this from the many of these I own and play often, but these seem to be mostly 78.

Sean


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 Post subject: Re: Electric Edison DD's play at 78 rpm?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:05 pm 
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Victor III
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 3:46 pm
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I am in awe of all of you with such a discerning ear that you can tell the difference between a few RPM's.
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 Post subject: Re: Electric Edison DD's play at 78 rpm?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:16 pm 
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Victor V
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:54 pm
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Edison laterals are supposed to be played at 78.8 rpm, believe it or not. I assume this was an aural compromise between the "standard" 78 and Edison's 80.

I have heard that the mastering speed for Diamond Discs was reduced when the laterals came out, but this makes no sense to me. Even if you were recording a lateral and a vertical at the same time, they would be on completely independent lathes that could run at whatever speed they needed to. There would be no need for them to match.

I'd like to see someone conduct an experiment with identical lateral and vertical recordings and a good tachometer to see if there's truly any difference.


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 Post subject: Re: Electric Edison DD's play at 78 rpm?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:36 pm 
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Victor V
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I agree about the lathes being independent and that it would make no real sense in that respect, because obviously that's true. Anyone who has a lateral and vertical Edison of the same title can easily perform that experiment just using the pitch control on a modern turntable. I own five needle type Edisons, but none of their DD counterparts so I've never been able to try that.

There's a guy in one of the Facebook groups who argued vehemently with me on the point that he insisted every single Edison DD played at 80 NO MATTER WHAT. I decided to prove him wrong by shooting a simple video using a pitch pipe and adjusting the speed control then zooming in to show the speed was something like 75. His response was to call me several names, tell me I didn't know anything about music (even with over 10 years of being a musician), then blocked me. It created quite a stir but it also enlightened a bunch of others to make use of the speed control, it's there for a reason, unless you want to start using the later models with the "under the deck" ones as the hard and fast rule. It isn't. :)

I should make another video like that soon, it was a great deal of fun.

Sean


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 Post subject: Re: Electric Edison DD's play at 78 rpm?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:36 pm 
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Victor III
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52089 wrote:
I have heard that the mastering speed for Diamond Discs was reduced when the laterals came out, but this makes no sense to me.



52089 -

I think the answer may lie in the C-1 and C-2 machines that would play both the Diamond Discs and the Laterals. I think somebody rightly judged that nobody would want to fiddle with a speed change on the machine when going from one format to another.

Regards,
Martin


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 Post subject: Re: Electric Edison DD's play at 78 rpm?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:54 pm 
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Victor IV
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:43 pm
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Location: Toronto, Ontario
The early diamond discs...the 1912 and 1913 material is often much slower that 80rpm. I have a recording of Bela's Lustspiel Overture that must play at almost 70 rpm.

Jim.


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 Post subject: Re: Electric Edison DD's play at 78 rpm?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:24 am 
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Victor IV
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Quote:
I think the answer may lie in the C-1 and C-2 machines that would play both the Diamond Discs and the Laterals. I think somebody rightly judged that nobody would want to fiddle with a speed change on the machine when going from one format to another.


Excellent point, and the Edisonic machines did not have a control knob for adjusting the rpm unless you used a special tool under the motor board. Edison did start putting out there own 78 rpm adapter reproducer so that you could also play 78s and DD's on the hand crank Edisonic machines.


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 Post subject: Re: Electric Edison DD's play at 78 rpm?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:30 am 
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Victor III
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F. Depero, "Grammofono", 1923.
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donniej wrote:
I am in awe of all of you with such a discerning ear that you can tell the difference between a few RPM's.

Have you ever done some experiments with the pitch control? The difference you hear while rising it up or lowering it down by just 1 RPM is truly glaring - something that even the less educated ear can clearly perceive.

To tell the exact value of which the correct speed should be by ear is another matter, of course. When I know how the voice of a specific singer should sound, or how the tempo should beat, I can quite easily tell if the record should revolve a bit faster or a bit slower, and perhaps guess the nominal speed at least grossly. However, there are records that are very elusive, and there are also some records which have the odd property of playing "natural" at different speeds. (At least to my ears, of course!)


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 Post subject: Re: Electric Edison DD's play at 78 rpm?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:30 am 
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Victor IV
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:44 pm
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I wonder why the major manufactures of records and machines say to set them at a certain revolution rate, and yet the records are often recorded at much different speeds. What played into these variations? A friend when I put up an opera record which was playing at 78, wrote to say it actually should be running at 73 rpm to sound right. Thats a pretty big difference. He sent a whole list of various records and what the real recorded speed was along with a strobe marked for various points below and above the normal 78. Seems like they would have tried to record at the speed the machines were set for to me?


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