Blue Amberol Splits

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Victrolacollector
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Blue Amberol Splits

Post by Victrolacollector »

I don’t know if anyone else has been seeing a lot of this lately?
When I go to antique stores or find Blue Amberols in their boxes, I have found many seem to have split across the entire cylinder. It seems to become more common for me to find them in this condition? Are they reaching the age where they are starting to split?

This is why it is good to have people making new reproduction copies of these cylinders, especially the rarer ones.

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OrthoSean
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Re: Blue Amberol Splits

Post by OrthoSean »

BAs tend to split in extreme cold. At least that's what I've noticed. I don't think it has to do with age. I've had BAs for well over 30 years that came to me with edge splits, the particular ones I'm thinking of were stored in a rather dampish barn for decades before I got them.

Sean

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WDC
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Re: Blue Amberol Splits

Post by WDC »

I'm sorry to break the bad news, but that's what is eventually going to happy to all Blue Amberols.
The problem is the camphor in the celluloid that was used as a softening agent. It does evaporate of a long period of time. As a result, the celluloid will loose some of its mass and shrink. At the same time, it becomes more brittle. The plaster core will retain most of its diameter. As a result, one of the two will give way. And most of the time, it's the celluloid.

This is the reason, why you never should use alcohol to clean a Blue Amberol. The alcohol acts as a solvent to camphor, thus accellerating the ageing process.

One attempt that I am running in a long-term test is the use of an exsiccator with a high saturation of camphor, so that at least no further camphor will be able to evaporate. There will be also a way of telling whether a re-saturation process has started or not.

Victrolacollector
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Re: Blue Amberol Splits

Post by Victrolacollector »

WDC wrote:I'm sorry to break the bad news, but that's what is eventually going to happy to all Blue Amberols.
The problem is the camphor in the celluloid that was used as a softening agent. It does evaporate of a long period of time. As a result, the celluloid will loose some of its mass and shrink. At the same time, it becomes more brittle. The plaster core will retain most of its diameter. As a result, one of the two will give way. And most of the time, it's the celluloid.

This is the reason, why you never should use alcohol to clean a Blue Amberol. The alcohol acts as a solvent to camphor, thus accellerating the ageing process.

One attempt that I am running in a long-term test is the use of an exsiccator with a high saturation of camphor, so that at least no further camphor will be able to evaporate. There will be also a way of telling whether a re-saturation process has started or not.
Hey Norman:

I agree! I think this is the start of this problem. I have quite a few good condition Amberols that I am willing to loan for molding.
I have Baby Face by Merkels Orch, Lindbergh Eagle of the USA and others in the 5000 series. All I ask is return if the original and one resin copy. We need to get these preserved before they are gone for good.

I am wondering if rubbing Vick’s ointment with camphor can help?

Jerry

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WDC
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Re: Blue Amberol Splits

Post by WDC »

Victrolacollector wrote: Hey Norman:

I agree! I think this is the start of this problem. I have quite a few good condition Amberols that I am willing to loan for molding.
I have Baby Face by Merkels Orch, Lindbergh Eagle of the USA and others in the 5000 series. All I ask is return if the original and one resin copy. We need to get these preserved before they are gone for good.

I am wondering if rubbing Vick’s ointment with camphor can help?

Jerry
Hey Jerry!
I have been aware of these problems for almost 20 years. It's certainly nothing new and we do know the problem must have been present even when they were new because the late Lambert cylinders then came with a core as well. But especially these late black Lambert cylinders are terribly brittle, much more than any Blue Amberol.

I do have to access to Lindbergh, but Baby Face would be a title that I'd like to add to my own collection as a reproduction. This could be something for this fall and I'd happy to supply you with a free copy, of course.

The problem I see with ointments is generally the lack of truly uniform application. And with Vick's, you'd have to make sure that no additional ingredients were problematic.
Exposing the cylinder to an enriched atmosphere may take longer but would be, theoretically, safer. Nevertheless, both might be worth a try.

My assumption is that the process would likely take at least several weeks, maybe months.

AmberolaAndy
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Re: Blue Amberol Splits

Post by AmberolaAndy »

OrthoSean wrote:BAs tend to split in extreme cold. At least that's what I've noticed. I don't think it has to do with age. I've had BAs for well over 30 years that came to me with edge splits, the particular ones I'm thinking of were stored in a rather dampish barn for decades before I got them.

Sean
Because of this, I definitely learned my lesson from buying blue amberols off Ebay during the winter. :oops:

billybob62
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Re: Blue Amberol Splits

Post by billybob62 »

WDC wrote:I'm sorry to break the bad news, but that's what is eventually going to happy to all Blue Amberols.
The problem is the camphor in the celluloid that was used as a softening agent. It does evaporate of a long period of time. As a result, the celluloid will loose some of its mass and shrink. At the same time, it becomes more brittle. The plaster core will retain most of its diameter. As a result, one of the two will give way. And most of the time, it's the celluloid.

This is the reason, why you never should use alcohol to clean a Blue Amberol. The alcohol acts as a solvent to camphor, thus accellerating the ageing process.

One attempt that I am running in a long-term test is the use of an exsiccator with a high saturation of camphor, so that at least no further camphor will be able to evaporate. There will be also a way of telling whether a re-saturation process has started or not.
Hi Norman,
Thanks for that.
And while we're on the subject, how should we clean your reproduction cylinders and, for that matter, any Diamond Disc reproductions that you make?
Thanks,
John

Victrolacollector
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Re: Blue Amberol Splits

Post by Victrolacollector »

WDC wrote:
Victrolacollector wrote: Hey Norman:

I agree! I think this is the start of this problem. I have quite a few good condition Amberols that I am willing to loan for molding.
I have Baby Face by Merkels Orch, Lindbergh Eagle of the USA and others in the 5000 series. All I ask is return if the original and one resin copy. We need to get these preserved before they are gone for good.

I am wondering if rubbing Vick’s ointment with camphor can help?

Jerry
Hey Jerry!
I have been aware of these problems for almost 20 years. It's certainly nothing new and we do know the problem must have been present even when they were new because the late Lambert cylinders then came with a core as well. But especially these late black Lambert cylinders are terribly brittle, much more than any Blue Amberol.

I do have to access to Lindbergh, but Baby Face would be a title that I'd like to add to my own collection as a reproduction. This could be something for this fall and I'd happy to supply you with a free copy, of course.

The problem I see with ointments is generally the lack of truly uniform application. And with Vick's, you'd have to make sure that no additional ingredients were problematic.
Exposing the cylinder to an enriched atmosphere may take longer but would be, theoretically, safer. Nevertheless, both might be worth a try.

My assumption is that the process would likely take at least several weeks, maybe months.
I think Vick’s ointment would be out of the question, I read the ingredients and it says it contains turpentine oil and from what I understand that terpentine oil is a solvent.

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WDC
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Re: Blue Amberol Splits

Post by WDC »

Good poing, Jerry. I wouldn't feel safe to use it. But I can order camphor at any local pharmacy here. It's not cheap but should last some time. I would delute a part of it in alcohol to expose the cylinder to a saturated atmosphere.

John, good question! At least pure or high percentage alcohol should be avoided since it may act as a solvent to the resin, although nowhere near as severe as it would react to shellac. Glass cleaner has worked fine for me since the alcohol percentage is usually not more than about 10%. Otherwise water and some washing liquid will work great.

Btw. I found this cylinder just about three weeks ago. I had stored it in a box in my display case. The last time I had checked it was fine, not anymore... :(
blacklambertsplit.jpg

billybob62
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Re: Blue Amberol Splits

Post by billybob62 »

Thanks, Norman!

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