The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

It is currently Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:08 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Were direct-recorded cylinders still available c. 1900?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:43 pm 
Offline
Victor I
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:52 am
Posts: 149
Location: Redruth, Cornwall, U.K.
For many years – decades, even – I took it for granted that brown-wax cylinders of the late 1890s would inevitably be faint and indistinct; I thought this was the result of the 'pantograph' process by which they were duplicated. Within the last year, however, I have acquired a few Columbia and (British) Edison-Bell cylinders which are old enough to play at low speeds but which yield very little in clarity to those of the moulded era; they may not be quite so loud, but their sharpness of definition surprises me anew whenever I hear them*.

This has set me wondering whether, after the introduction of the pantographic and dubbing processes, it was still possible for the public to obtain (perhaps at a higher price) actual studio masters. If the ones I have are only pantographic copies, what could the quality of the originals have been? And is there any way (short of listening to hundreds of cylinders in the flesh, so to speak, which I can scarcely hope to do) to distinguish whether a cylinder was dubbed, pantographed or recorded direct?

*I hasten to add that I have digitised these and do not expose the originals to repeated playing, even on my Columbia Q which belongs to their own period.

Oliver Mundy.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Were direct-recorded cylinders still available c. 1900?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:22 pm 
Offline
Victor V
User avatar
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:52 pm
Posts: 2091
I didn't know Edison and Columbia were recording master cylinders with the intent of dubbing them, in the late 1800's. I always thought that after the first method of direct recording numerous cylinders in a group and then repeating the process - each cylinder sold essentially being a 'master'- it all changed with TAE's moulding process in 1902 or whatever.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Were direct-recorded cylinders still available c. 1900?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:25 am 
Offline
Victor V
User avatar
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:17 am
Posts: 2855
Location: Where there's "hamburger ALL OVER the highway"...
Wolfe wrote:
I didn't know Edison and Columbia were recording master cylinders with the intent of dubbing them, in the late 1800's. I always thought that after the first method of direct recording numerous cylinders in a group and then repeating the process - each cylinder sold essentially being a 'master'- it all changed with TAE's moulding process in 1902 or whatever.


I have read that Edison developed molded 5 inch cylinders in the late 1890s (1898?), which were used as masters for pantograph copying.

"Direct recorded" cylinders, c. 1900, would have been the province of small independent companies: although their claims of "Every Record an Original!" are rather suspect.

Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Were direct-recorded cylinders still available c. 1900?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:44 am 
Offline
Victor III
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 6:18 am
Posts: 822
The early Pathés were master records, before they started to utilize pantographs to reproduce cylinders. I would guess that all brown wax Pathés fall in this category, but upon listening to them I cannot discern any significant difference with respect to the later black wax ones. The shortcoming in listening to such brown wax cylinders is that it is very hard to find one in good condition, so the defects of wear and age overshadow the possible recording qualities.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Were direct-recorded cylinders still available c. 1900?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:02 pm 
Offline
Victor IV
User avatar
A new blank with authentic formula and spiral core!
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:50 am
Posts: 1402
Location: 615 1/2 South Main Street Princeton IL 61356.
:squirrel: I am uploading from a court case between Edison and Columbia these pages talk about the duplication of cylinders for pant-o-graph masters. I am including court testimony.


Attachments:
em0013.jpg
em0013.jpg [ 144.64 KiB | Viewed 487 times ]
em0010.jpg
em0010.jpg [ 120.72 KiB | Viewed 488 times ]
em0011.jpg
em0011.jpg [ 134.97 KiB | Viewed 488 times ]
File comment: Moulded duplicate development.
em0012.jpg
em0012.jpg [ 130.23 KiB | Viewed 494 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Were direct-recorded cylinders still available c. 1900?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:48 pm 
Offline
Victor III
User avatar
Richards Laboratories http://www.richardslaboratories.com producing high quality cylinder blanks
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:28 pm
Posts: 732
Great post Shawn! :ugeek:

Those old court cases always give us a glimpse
back in time.
"Sustained success depends on searching
for, and gaining, fundamental understanding"

-Bell System Credo


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Were direct-recorded cylinders still available c. 1900?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:42 pm 
Offline
Victor IV
User avatar
A new blank with authentic formula and spiral core!
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:50 am
Posts: 1402
Location: 615 1/2 South Main Street Princeton IL 61356.
I have found very valuable information in these court cases. They talk about different thread pitch for mastering, kinds of molds used, Edison's team debunks a lot of Columbia BS. One Columbia patent states that Columbia super heated the molds to 350 C, totally bunk as that wax would be on fire, and the ceresin destroyed!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Were direct-recorded cylinders still available c. 1900?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:44 pm 
Offline
Victor IV
User avatar
A new blank with authentic formula and spiral core!
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:50 am
Posts: 1402
Location: 615 1/2 South Main Street Princeton IL 61356.
I have found very valuable information in these court cases. They talk about different thread pitch for mastering, kinds of molds used, Edison's team debunks a lot of Columbia BS. One Columbia patent states that Columbia super heated the molds to 350 C, totally bunk as that wax would be on fire, and the ceresin destroyed!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Were direct-recorded cylinders still available c. 1900?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:27 pm 
Offline
Victor II
Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 2:30 pm
Posts: 202
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Ample documentation exists on the pantograph process, including various court-challenges. If you are interested in further research into the topic, you may login to the APS site at

www.antiquephono.org

and navigate to Articles / Advanced

There you can enter the word

Pantograph

in the Search field

and you will see the following articles available for viewing and download, that mention the word “pantograph”.

APM-VOL V-05-1977
APM-VOL VII-03-1982
ITG-1985-11
ITG-1986-11
ITG-1990-11
ITG-1991-06
ITG-1992-04
ITG-1996-06
ITG-1997-12
ITG-1999-10
ITG-2000-03
ITG-2002-01
ITG-2002-11
ITG-2007-12
ITG-2010-10-11-L
NAG 95-2_REDACTED 1996
NAG-1982-03-REDACTED
NAG-1982-04-REDACTED
NAG-1989-02_REDACTED
TAP-2011-12
TSB-1990-11
TSB-1996-01
TSB-1996-05
TSB-1998-09
TSB-2000-01
TSB-2001-07
TSB-2002-03
TSB-2003-07
TSB-2003-11
TSB-2006-03
TSB-2006-12
TSB-2007-03
TSB-2008-12
TSB-2010-09
TTMR-1976-41
TTMR-1978-51



The first reference, APM-VOL V-05-1977 (Antique Phonograph Monthly) includes an informative article titled

“The Beginning of “Dubbed" Edison Blue Amberol Cylinders”

By

Ronald Dethlefson
With an Afterword by Peter Dilg

Another interesting reference is contained in:

NAG 95-2_redacted 1996 (New Amberola Graphic)

which references the “pantograph” process used with Viatphone discs.

The Antique Phonograph Society and donors are sponsoring the return of another Vitaphone short to the silver screen.

BEN POLLACK AND HIS PARK CENTRAL ORCHESTRA was made shortly after At the Club (1929). It features a young Benny Goodman and Jack Teagarden, and Teagarden both plays and talks. The Library of Congress has a 35mm negative of the film but a complete version of its soundtrack was unavailable. Some time back an incomplete soundtrack disc was synced up with a mangled 16mm print but that is all anyone has seen of this film in decades.

In February, there was a breakthrough. A complete soundtrack disc was found. Currently, this disc and the 35mm negative are being restored at the UCLA Film and Television Archive. APS plans to premiere this complete, stunning restoration at the Expo Banquet in August.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Were direct-recorded cylinders still available c. 1900?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:42 pm 
Offline
Victor IV
User avatar
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:41 pm
Posts: 1795
Location: Linden, NJ 07036
Here is a copy of the article from my set of Antique Phonograph Monthly’s that Rod Pickett is referring to “The Beginning of “Dubbed" Edison Blue Amberol Cylinders”. Great information.

Rich Gordon


Attachments:
E9E76FE5-9CED-4EEB-9A9E-E11CB2D45AA7.jpeg
E9E76FE5-9CED-4EEB-9A9E-E11CB2D45AA7.jpeg [ 1.66 MiB | Viewed 309 times ]
67C34E18-69B1-429B-A23E-781CD12FCBF9.jpeg
67C34E18-69B1-429B-A23E-781CD12FCBF9.jpeg [ 2.48 MiB | Viewed 309 times ]
919A4FA9-937F-464E-A7BD-730F33113F78.jpeg
919A4FA9-937F-464E-A7BD-730F33113F78.jpeg [ 2.02 MiB | Viewed 309 times ]
FE6C774F-5FC5-4FAA-937F-2D17F82314F3.jpeg
FE6C774F-5FC5-4FAA-937F-2D17F82314F3.jpeg [ 3.15 MiB | Viewed 309 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Americanized by Maël Soucaze.