The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

For many years – decades, even – I took it for granted that brown-wax cylinders of the late 1890s would inevitably be faint and indistinct; I thought this was the result of the 'pantograph' process by which they were duplicated. Within the last year, however, I have acquired a few Columbia and (British) Edison-Bell cylinders which are old enough to play at low speeds but which yield very little in clarity to those of the moulded era; they may not be quite so loud, but their sharpness of definition surprises me anew whenever I hear them*.

This has set me wondering whether, after the introduction of the pantographic and dubbing processes, it was still possible for the public to obtain (perhaps at a higher price) actual studio masters. If the ones I have are only pantographic copies, what could the quality of the originals have been? And is there any way (short of listening to hundreds of cylinders in the flesh, so to speak, which I can scarcely hope to do) to distinguish whether a cylinder was dubbed, pantographed or recorded direct?

*I hasten to add that I have digitised these and do not expose the originals to repeated playing, even on my Columbia Q which belongs to their own period.

Oliver Mundy.

I didn't know Edison and Columbia were recording master cylinders with the intent of dubbing them, in the late 1800's. I always thought that after the first method of direct recording numerous cylinders in a group and then repeating the process - each cylinder sold essentially being a 'master'- it all changed with TAE's moulding process in 1902 or whatever.

I have read that Edison developed molded 5 inch cylinders in the late 1890s (1898?), which were used as masters for pantograph copying.

"Direct recorded" cylinders, c. 1900, would have been the province of small independent companies: although their claims of "Every Record an Original!" are rather suspect.

Bill

The early Pathés were master records, before they started to utilize pantographs to reproduce cylinders. I would guess that all brown wax Pathés fall in this category, but upon listening to them I cannot discern any significant difference with respect to the later black wax ones. The shortcoming in listening to such brown wax cylinders is that it is very hard to find one in good condition, so the defects of wear and age overshadow the possible recording qualities.

I am uploading from a court case between Edison and Columbia these pages talk about the duplication of cylinders for pant-o-graph masters. I am including court testimony.

Great post Shawn!

Those old court cases always give us a glimpse
back in time.

I have found very valuable information in these court cases. They talk about different thread pitch for mastering, kinds of molds used, Edison's team debunks a lot of Columbia BS. One Columbia patent states that Columbia super heated the molds to 350 C, totally bunk as that wax would be on fire, and the ceresin destroyed!

I have found very valuable information in these court cases. They talk about different thread pitch for mastering, kinds of molds used, Edison's team debunks a lot of Columbia BS. One Columbia patent states that Columbia super heated the molds to 350 C, totally bunk as that wax would be on fire, and the ceresin destroyed!

Ample documentation exists on the pantograph process, including various court-challenges. If you are interested in further research into the topic, you may login to the APS site at

www.antiquephono.org

and navigate to Articles / Advanced

There you can enter the word

Pantograph

in the Search field

and you will see the following articles available for viewing and download, that mention the word “pantograph”.

APM-VOL V-05-1977
APM-VOL VII-03-1982
ITG-1985-11
ITG-1986-11
ITG-1990-11
ITG-1991-06
ITG-1992-04
ITG-1996-06
ITG-1997-12
ITG-1999-10
ITG-2000-03
ITG-2002-01
ITG-2002-11
ITG-2007-12
ITG-2010-10-11-L
NAG 95-2_REDACTED 1996
NAG-1982-03-REDACTED
NAG-1982-04-REDACTED
NAG-1989-02_REDACTED
TAP-2011-12
TSB-1990-11
TSB-1996-01
TSB-1996-05
TSB-1998-09
TSB-2000-01
TSB-2001-07
TSB-2002-03
TSB-2003-07
TSB-2003-11
TSB-2006-03
TSB-2006-12
TSB-2007-03
TSB-2008-12
TSB-2010-09
TTMR-1976-41
TTMR-1978-51



The first reference, APM-VOL V-05-1977 (Antique Phonograph Monthly) includes an informative article titled

“The Beginning of “Dubbed" Edison Blue Amberol Cylinders”

By

Ronald Dethlefson
With an Afterword by Peter Dilg

Another interesting reference is contained in:

NAG 95-2_redacted 1996 (New Amberola Graphic)

which references the “pantograph” process used with Viatphone discs.

The Antique Phonograph Society and donors are sponsoring the return of another Vitaphone short to the silver screen.

BEN POLLACK AND HIS PARK CENTRAL ORCHESTRA was made shortly after At the Club (1929). It features a young Benny Goodman and Jack Teagarden, and Teagarden both plays and talks. The Library of Congress has a 35mm negative of the film but a complete version of its soundtrack was unavailable. Some time back an incomplete soundtrack disc was synced up with a mangled 16mm print but that is all anyone has seen of this film in decades.

In February, there was a breakthrough. A complete soundtrack disc was found. Currently, this disc and the 35mm negative are being restored at the UCLA Film and Television Archive. APS plans to premiere this complete, stunning restoration at the Expo Banquet in August.

Here is a copy of the article from my set of Antique Phonograph Monthly’s that Rod Pickett is referring to “The Beginning of “Dubbed" Edison Blue Amberol Cylinders”. Great information.

Rich Gordon