The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

It is currently Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:55 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: 5" Berliner #458
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:38 pm 
Offline
Victor V
User avatar
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:23 am
Posts: 2090
Location: NW Indiana B-19;VV-IV; VV-VI;VV-XI;VV-XVI; Edison Home B; Amberola 30; Col. BK; Magnola;
Here is the link to the discography....

http://www.archeophone.org/Berliner5inch/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 5" Berliner #458
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:34 am 
Offline
Victor I
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:52 am
Posts: 129
Location: Redruth, Cornwall, U.K.
http://www.archeophone.org/Berliner5inc ... er-077.php contains a link to a brief sound-clip. The sound is surprisingly good, with less surface noise than many of the later seven-inch records. From the German text it appears that the 'Hohenfriedberger Marsch' dates from the eighteenth century and is sometimes attributed to King Friedrich II of Prussia (Frederick the Great).

Oliver Mundy.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 5" Berliner #458
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:51 am 
Offline
Victor II
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 3:46 pm
Posts: 491
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Thanks for all the great info! Yes, copies of this disc will be available after I catch up on current orders and figure out how to get the thickness consistent. At 100rpms, inconsistent thickness results in skating. This is a problem that has also been an issue with Diamond Discs...

Here's a copy playing side-by-side with the original. The condition and sound quality are really amazing, especially compared to the 7" shellac discs.

https://youtu.be/m7sk2G7wBYo
The Berliner Archive Project:
Lend me your Berliners to be molded and get your originals back plus free copies!
See the current status here = http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=32545


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 5" Berliner #458
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:15 pm 
Offline
Victor O
Opportunity is often missed, because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. - Thomas Edison
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:04 pm
Posts: 90
Location: Belmont,NC
That is fantastic. Quite an amazing sound compared to other 5 inch Berliners that I have heard.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 5" Berliner #458
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:22 pm 
Offline
Victor VI
User avatar
Needle Tins are Addictive
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:32 pm
Posts: 3306
Location: Belmont, North Carolina
Does anyone have an early Berliner puzzle disc that they would consider letting Don duplicate? I'm sure everyone would appreciate it...
"The phonograph† is not of any commercial value."
Thomas Alva Edison - Comment to his assistant, Samuel Insull.

"No one needs a Victrola XX, a Perfected Graphophone Type G, or whatever you call those noisy things."
My Wife


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 5" Berliner #458
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:48 pm 
Offline
Victor III
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:00 am
Posts: 999
This is a hard rubber pressing in wonderful condition of QI 458 Hohenfriedberger Marsch, a recording from 1890, however a later pressing of 1891/92, recognizable by the stamped catalogue number "77" to the left of the spindle hole. Here is a recent article about the first commercial 5", or rather 4.92 inches, Berliner disc records of 1890: https://www.cylinder.de/deeplink_resour ... iner2.html


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 5" Berliner #458
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:24 am 
Offline
Victor II
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 3:46 pm
Posts: 491
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Thank you for the great info. Regarding the material the disc is made of, I don't doubt the accuracy of the article but it does raise some questions. The disc feels like the same material Blue Amberol cylinders are made of, it's slightly flexible but not compressible. When discussing pre-WWII rubber, I assume it to be latex, which is hardened (vulcanized) with sulfur. Any quantity of sulfur will deactivate the platinum catalyst in the silicone used to make the mold. Since this did not happen, it appears no sulfur is present in the disc.
So I wonder what kind of rubber it was made of?
The Berliner Archive Project:
Lend me your Berliners to be molded and get your originals back plus free copies!
See the current status here = http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=32545


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 5" Berliner #458
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:58 am 
Offline
Victor III
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:00 am
Posts: 999
donniej wrote:
When discussing pre-WWII rubber, I assume it to be latex, which is hardened (vulcanized) with sulfur. Any quantity of sulfur will deactivate the platinum catalyst in the silicone used to make the mold. Since this did not happen, it appears no sulfur is present in the disc.
So I wonder what kind of rubber it was made of?

That's a valid question. There was no hard rubber without sulfur content. In preparation of the article, to determine the material, I had obtained samples of more than a dozen Berliner 5" discs from all production periods and had them examined with the FTIR spectrometer. In addition, burning and smell tests were carried out. The result was very clear. All black discs were made of hard rubber, the only light yellow disc examined was celluloid. Furthermore, many of the almost three hundred (formerly) black discs I inspected showed the typical phenomenon of hard rubber: exposure to sunlight had turned them brown - in all shades from dark brown to milky coffee brown.

The quality of the hard rubber used as pressing material is high and the German company contracted at that time was experienced in the work with this material. The proportion of free sulfur in hard rubber was kept low by appropriate vulcanization time and temperature, because otherwise the desired physical parameters of the rubber would be changed by post-cross-linking. I asked an expert for hard rubber about your question and his reply was: Since it is very old hard rubber, the free sulphur was bound as far as possible in the course of aging and therefore no longer reacts with the platinum catalyst. However, there is a certain risk and he would recommend the use of condensation cross-linking silicone.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 5" Berliner #458
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:48 am 
Offline
Victor III
User avatar
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:03 am
Posts: 640
Location: near Utopia, UK
Starkton wrote:
donniej wrote:
When discussing pre-WWII rubber, I assume it to be latex, which is hardened (vulcanized) with sulfur. Any quantity of sulfur will deactivate the platinum catalyst in the silicone used to make the mold. Since this did not happen, it appears no sulfur is present in the disc.
So I wonder what kind of rubber it was made of?

That's a valid question. There was no hard rubber without sulfur content. In preparation of the article, to determine the material, I had obtained samples of more than a dozen Berliner 5" discs from all production periods and had them examined with the FTIR spectrometer. In addition, burning and smell tests were carried out. The result was very clear. All black discs were made of hard rubber, the only light yellow disc examined was celluloid. Furthermore, many of the almost three hundred (formerly) black discs I inspected showed the typical phenomenon of hard rubber: exposure to sunlight had turned them brown - in all shades from dark brown to milky coffee brown.

The quality of the hard rubber used as pressing material is high and the German company contracted at that time was experienced in the work with this material. The proportion of free sulfur in hard rubber was kept low by appropriate vulcanization time and temperature, because otherwise the desired physical parameters of the rubber would be changed by post-cross-linking. I asked an expert for hard rubber about your question and his reply was: Since it is very old hard rubber, the free sulphur was bound as far as possible in the course of aging and therefore no longer reacts with the platinum catalyst. However, there is a certain risk and he would recommend the use of condensation cross-linking silicone.

That's exactly what I was thinking, that any free sulphur would have reacted long ago and become bound into the crosslinks. Thanks heavens Berliner ebonite material doesn't seem to revert (depolymerise, and/or the crosslinks decompose) like most ordinary natural rubber moulded goods do.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 5" Berliner #458
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:03 pm 
Offline
Victor II
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 3:46 pm
Posts: 491
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Hi Norman,
Will you be at the Wayne show this Fall? If so then I'll bring them with me, to avoid shipping costs.

Don-


WDC wrote:
Fantastic to see that a collector with a decent 5" record opened up to this.

As far as I can make out the title it is "Hohenfriedberger", which would usually relate to a march.

Please count me in for 3 copies.
The Berliner Archive Project:
Lend me your Berliners to be molded and get your originals back plus free copies!
See the current status here = http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=32545


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Americanized by Maël Soucaze.