Diamond Double Disc Record. Any more info on company?

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Josh Cattermole 1999
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Diamond Double Disc Record. Any more info on company?

Post by Josh Cattermole 1999 »

Hi.
I recently bought this record off ebay. The seller had no idea what it was, and neither did I initially. I just thought it looked interesting and unusual, so slapped a bid on it. The little info I could find on it was that it was made c.1915 by a British offshoot of Pathé. That's pretty much all I could find, and even then I don't know if that is even true. I'm not quite sure what to make of this record.
Would anybody be able to shed more light on this elusive record company? Also, just how rare is it? And what machine would be needed to make the record play?
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
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Diamond Disc B Side.jpg
Diamond Disc A Side.jpg

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Curt A
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Re: Diamond Double Disc Record. Any more info on company?

Post by Curt A »

Info from Mike Thomas, who is very knowledgeable regarding British records and who has an interesting website:

The first known Diamond label used Kalliope masters, and was pressed In Germany for J. Blum & Co. (see first image). It dates to pre-WWI (probably early 1914). However, Frank Andrews reports seeong one pressed from Edison Bell masters. These Diamond records were never advertised on the trade journals of the time, which could imply they were sold door-to-door on the "tallyman" system.

Then there was a 10½" vertical cut disc produced by Pathé from 1915 for the Diamond Disc Record Company Ltd of 81 City Road London. Like Pathé records of the period, it initially had no paper label, but the details were etched in light blue in the label area (see 2nd image). Unlike Pathés it was an "ouside start" record. They were cheap at ⅙ each. In 1916, Pathé took over completely and for the next few years the record had paper labels until it's demise in about 1918.
There may well be a third label, dating to the pre-1920 period, but only a sketch for the design has ever been seen, and it is very similar to the first one above so may just be a prototype design for it. This desogn was submitted for registration by The Beka record Co in 1912.
http://www.mgthomas.co.uk/Records/labelindex-D.htm
"The phonograph† is not of any commercial value."
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"No one needs a Victrola XX, a Perfected Graphophone Type G, or whatever you call those noisy things."
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Josh Cattermole 1999
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Re: Diamond Double Disc Record. Any more info on company?

Post by Josh Cattermole 1999 »

Thanks Curt. That's some good info there. I'll log that in my notes.
Cheers.

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Re: Diamond Double Disc Record. Any more info on company?

Post by epigramophone »

Here is one of mine in it's original cover :
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drh
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Re: Diamond Double Disc Record. Any more info on company?

Post by drh »

I've often wondered how Pathé managed to market "Diamond Disc Records" while avoiding trademark infringement litigation from Edison, who never seems to have been the least bashful about filing lawsuits.

Josh Cattermole 1999
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Re: Diamond Double Disc Record. Any more info on company?

Post by Josh Cattermole 1999 »

Wow. That's a great cover. Mine hasn't arrived in the post yet so hopefully it comes in an original sleeve (I've noticed in many cases records listed online don't have sleeves displayed by the seller. But in several cases I've bought records online and they've arrived in some truly beautiful and amazing covers. It's baffling that the sellers don't show this off) as I imagine finding an original cover separately will be a near impossible task. Interestingly, epigramophone, my example has ''Double Disc'' engraved on both sides, whereas yours does not. Is yours single sided? It would be pretty interesting if this short-lived company sold both single and double-sided records.

And yes, knowing Edisons history it seems odd that no lawsuits were smacked down on Pathé.

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Curt A
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Re: Diamond Double Disc Record. Any more info on company?

Post by Curt A »

No lawsuits could be brought because they are not "Diamond Disc Records", but rather vertical cut records that are played with a ball point sapphire, not a diamond stylus, so not the same format. An Edison DD requires a pointed diamond stylus, as installed in a DD reproducer or a diamond stylus inserted in an adapter made to play DD records on a Victor or similar 78 machine... Thus DDs were meant to be proprietary and only playable on an Edison machine.

This is basically the result of a media war between vertical and lateral cut record formats, which Pathé took to a greater level of proprietary protection requiring a ball tip sapphire stylus to play them as opposed to steel needles or diamond styli.
"The phonograph† is not of any commercial value."
Thomas Alva Edison - Comment to his assistant, Samuel Insull.

"No one needs a Victrola XX, a Perfected Graphophone Type G, or whatever you call those noisy things."
My Wife

52089
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Re: Diamond Double Disc Record. Any more info on company?

Post by 52089 »

Curt A wrote:No lawsuits could be brought because they are not "Diamond Disc Records", but rather vertical cut records that are played with a ball point sapphire, not a diamond stylus, so not the same format. An Edison DD requires a pointed diamond stylus, as installed in a DD reproducer or a diamond stylus inserted in an adapter made to play DD records on a Victor or similar 78 machine... Thus DDs were meant to be proprietary and only playable on an Edison machine.

This is basically the result of a media war between vertical and lateral cut record formats, which Pathé took to a greater level of proprietary protection requiring a ball tip sapphire stylus to play them as opposed to steel needles or diamond styli.
In this case, any lawsuit wouldn't have been about patent infringement, but trademark infringement. I don't know if Edison ever formally registered "Diamond Disc" as a trademark, but if he did, he might have had a case. Whether "Diamond" or "Diamond Double Disc" would have infringed on that is hard to say for sure, especially since Edison never used "Diamond Disc" on the actual records (although he did on the sleeves) and the Pathé subsidiary did.

Josh Cattermole 1999
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Re: Diamond Double Disc Record. Any more info on company?

Post by Josh Cattermole 1999 »

Very interesting. Cheers guys.

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Re: Diamond Double Disc Record. Any more info on company?

Post by Curt A »

Trademark infringement might be a possibility, but the record only says "Diamond" on the label, while the sleeve says "Diamond" Disc...
So, does referring to a "Diamond" record as a "disc" violate a trademark, since other round flat records were referred to as discs, such as Pathé discs, picture discs, Columbia discs or Berliner discs? I don't think the word "disc" is a trademarked word, since it is the description of a format. For example a "computer" can be an HP, Apple, MAC, Microsoft, etc., but only the name is a branded trademark, not the word computer...

Other cylinder records than Edison's were referred to by their cylinder format - Indestructible cylinders, etc., so only "Edison" on a cylinder would be a brand trademark. There were other cylinder brands than Edison that also claimed to be Gold Molded cylinders... so apparently, gold molded is a description of a process, not a brand.
"The phonograph† is not of any commercial value."
Thomas Alva Edison - Comment to his assistant, Samuel Insull.

"No one needs a Victrola XX, a Perfected Graphophone Type G, or whatever you call those noisy things."
My Wife

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