The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

It is currently Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:44 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Blue Amberol cylinders: How to seal surface after reamin
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:15 pm 
Offline
Victor II
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:23 pm
Posts: 218
Location: Navarre, Ohio
WDC wrote:
Beating out the ends of a BA core would be a pretty good way to destroy a Blue Amberol but very unlikely make it fit the mandrel again. In most cases it is the whole interior of the cylinder that has become smaller, thus removing just one end will only cause the celluloid to shrink unevenly. An easier explanation would be, that such a cylinder was either dropped or the PoP core began to crumble by itself. I have seen it happen both ways.

Everyone who has handled Lambert cylinders, early films and celluloid discs is likely aware of their shrinking problems. It's the very same thing with Blue Amberols. As long as the celluloid has space to shrink it will, but once that reserve is used up it will either split or break the core.


You would think that after nearly 100 years, the celluloid cylinders would have shrunk all that they are going to just as pot metal fatigue. However, I have also learned this is not the case. Pot metal is still unstable and still swells and explodes. Degradation is also not only with Blue Amberols that this is a problem. I purchased some very nice Indestructible 4 minute Celluloids with the cardboard core only to find that some of them split right down the middle of the record just leaving me a useless sheet of very thin celluloid. I am and have been a "Champion" of Norman Bruderhofer as long as I have known of him which is why I am always "pleading" for people to make at least MP3 recordings of Hot cylinders and diamond discs for either Norman or Vulcan can preserve them on the resin copies which are better quality than the original anyway. I have also made a couple of pleas for people to make their late issue diamond discs available to Don Wilson to mold and copy in his resin until a better process to reproduce 2 sided original looking copies in resin comes along. I set the best example I could by providing 11 of my rare Diamond Discs that I am sure people have ordered copies of and paid shipping out of my pocket and had one casualty of my favorite diamond disc crack somewhere along the way.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Blue Amberol cylinders: How to seal surface after reamin
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:50 am 
Offline
Victor IV
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2009 5:17 pm
Posts: 1140
Location: Can see Canada from Attic Window
A spray furniture polish with real wax in it might serve to seal the plaster surface. Even though spray polish contains a great deal of water, it should evaporate quickly & leave some wax coating on the plaster. Don't know how to test that idea, as it takes so very long for good Plaster of Paris to deteriorate (which begs the question: Did Edison use GOOD plaster? ) ...

It's unfortunate that Edison dropped the blue aniline dye from the early production process, and this seems to have kept the plaster from swelling. I can't think of a single blue-cored Amberol of mine which has a swelling problem - they all fit on the mandrels & play without a problem. I have never needed to "ream" a single Blue Amberol with blue plaster.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Blue Amberol cylinders: How to seal surface after reamin
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:06 am 
Offline
Victor IV
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2009 5:17 pm
Posts: 1140
Location: Can see Canada from Attic Window
marco wrote:
WDC wrote:
Beating out the ends of a BA core would be a pretty good way to destroy a Blue Amberol but very unlikely make it fit the mandrel again. In most cases it is the whole interior of the cylinder that has become smaller, thus removing just one end will only cause the celluloid to shrink unevenly. An easier explanation would be, that such a cylinder was either dropped or the PoP core began to crumble by itself. I have seen it happen both ways.

Everyone who has handled Lambert cylinders, early films and celluloid discs is likely aware of their shrinking problems. It's the very same thing with Blue Amberols. As long as the celluloid has space to shrink it will, but once that reserve is used up it will either split or break the core.


You would think that after nearly 100 years, the celluloid cylinders would have shrunk all that they are going to just as pot metal fatigue. However, I have also learned this is not the case.


After finding some batches of un-shrunken, pristine, GLITTERING celluloid cylinders, I knew that the secret was in the storage : all had been kept in tight containers, such as heavy cardboard lined with cotton flock (aka - Wax cylinder cartons) & had the lids on; I deduced that the fumes from the evaporating camphor were trapped inside with the records, and kept them from shrinking. Basically, the more they smell like Vicks Vapo-Rub, the more likely they haven't shrunk. I can only imagine how a storefront full of 1,000 Indestructible or Everlasting cylinders smelled, when new.

I've stored all of my pristine "aromatic" cylinders together, in what I hope are air-tight modern containers (Tupperware, basically) and each container has a blob of cotton smooshed with Vicks. If I find a better Camphor source, I will use it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Blue Amberol cylinders: How to seal surface after reamin
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:28 pm 
Offline
Victor III
User avatar
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:07 am
Posts: 953
Edisone wrote:
I deduced that the fumes from the evaporating camphor were trapped inside with the records, and kept them from shrinking. Basically, the more they smell like Vicks Vapo-Rub, the more likely they haven't shrunk. I can only imagine how a storefront full of 1,000 Indestructible or Everlasting cylinders smelled, when new.

I've stored all of my pristine "aromatic" cylinders together, in what I hope are air-tight modern containers (Tupperware, basically) and each container has a blob of cotton smooshed with Vicks. If I find a better Camphor source, I will use it.


That nails is exactly and is indeed a very good start to avoid further evaporation. This is why alcohol should be avoided with celluloid. Alcohol is a great solvent for camphor and you can smell a lot of it after the slightest wipe. I really wonder how much of it was added to the celluloid originally as it had to be a significant percentage that it still has such a great impact 100 years afterwards.

I really think, a great effort should be put into preserving the originals. While having reproductions available to be used to period equipment, there are so many additional hints one can only harvest from the original media, such as information for material and production research.

A good example has been the the prevailing opinion on acetate tapes with curling and vinegar syndrome: Digitize and discard the originals. WTF?
But then a highly skilled chemist at the Vienna Phonogram Archive developed a chemical restoration process to save them for the next 100 years to come - yes she made calculations for another century of storage.

I truly believe, that there has to be an effective solution for celluloid cylinders as well. Because of the cores, metal, ends, basically anything composite, these cylinder are especially vulnerable to self-destruction as materials almost always age differently. Rejuvenating the celluloid has to be possible.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Blue Amberol cylinders: How to seal surface after reamin
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:46 am 
Offline
Victor III
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:02 pm
Posts: 895
Location: Melbourne, FL
No water should EVER be used or introduced to clean a Blue Amberol. If you must clean it or wipe it down, You can use no less than 90% Rubbing Alcohol to clean it.

I've never heard of an Alcohol-Camphor dilution/evaporation issue... This is the first that I've ever heard of it..

Camphor does evaporate, but it's usually a Natural Age progression thing as long as the cylinder(s) are properly stored.

:o)

Tony K.

Edison Collector/Restorer


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Americanized by Maël Soucaze.