Sweet Sue - Paul Whiteman

[richardh]

Paul Whiteman playing Sweet Sue. This is the full 12" version of the song which I believe was also available in an edited version to fit on a 10" disk.

http://www.box.net/shared/84397fnxli

RJ

[WDC]

A nice number, and well-transferred too!

[Henry]

The 10" Whiteman "Sweet Sue" that I own (Col. 35667, from album C-29 ("Hot Jazz Classics: Jazz as it should be played by Bix Beiderbecke") is the same length as the posted version above, i.e., around 4:17, give or take 5 sec. or so. Actually, as played on my VV-XI (thank you please no comments about suitable equipment to play later 78s, it sounds just terrific and I like it that way) the playing time is 4:22, but the difference is accounted for by relative turntable speeds; the musical content is identical, and I stress that last fact as there has been some debate as to how much playing time could be squeezed onto one side of a 10" 78rpm record. There may well have been an edited 10" version that omitted some content and was therefore shorter than the 10" version I own. This topic was discussed at length on a previous board but I'm happy to see it resurrected here, and I especially thank richardh for posting his excellent copy, as it's always a joy to hear Bix's masterful solo in the third chorus (it's almost worth enduring the syrupy vocal in chorus two---why didn't they cut THAT on my 10" version???).

[richardh]

Thanks for the info Henry....I wonder is it worth comparing matrix numbers to see if they are the same on yur 10" and my 12" disks. I need to dig out my disk and I will put the matrix number here.

Yes I agree with those syrupy vocals! They could cut that with my blessing! I have another version of this song somewhere which is quite good. Every time I hear this song though I always see in my mind Jack Lemmon on the bandstand in Some like it hot! The look on his face always makes me laugh!

Interesting just how much they coud cram onto a 10". I would never have thought they could do that. I wonder if they cut two masters at the same time - one 10" and the other 12" or whether one version is a dub.

RJ

[Henry]

Hi Richard, my 10" "Sweet Sue," Col. 35667, is a re-issue of the original recording that was made, according to the label, on Sept. 18, 1929, matrix no. 24050. The original issue no. was Columbia 50103-D. Don't know how this compares to the 12" or how the two identical versions were recorded in different formats, but you raise an interesting question. The re-issue I own was evidently issued in the later 1940s or early 1950s, as the inside of the back album cover refers to O.P.A. ceiling prices, which I understand was a US government attempt to control post-WW2 inflation (not sure what "O.P.A." stands for; probably "Office of Price Administration" or some such); as is usual over here, there is no date on the album cover, not even a copyright date that I can find, and the program notes (by George Avakian, noted record producer of the period) are silent on the topic.

I guess about the only thing I could say in favor of the vocal chorus is that it does reflect the period style, so it's valuable as an historical artifact; its artistic merit is something else again! Also, as a former trombonist myself, I must praise the muted trombone trio in chorus 1; there's nothing better than three trombones in harmony, whether it's pop, jazz, or (especially) classical!

P.S. "Some Like It Hot" is one of my favorite films, too. I always get a kick out of Tony Curtis's imitation of Cary Grant (or Archie Leach, if you prefer).

[richardh]

Henry,

my 12" version is taken from a UK Columbia disk and there are two sets of numbers in the run off grooves. These are 10509 and 98584.

Thinking about it I have a number of 10" disks that were advertised as having the equivalent playing time to a 12" disk. However these had very small labels and the grooves went much further in towards the centre than on standard records. I guess the groove pitch on your copy must be much higher than a standard 78 pressing to cram in the extra playing time.

In digging out this record I see the other side has another of my favourite tunes on it "I can't give you anything but love" ....again reminds me of that great Grant / Hepburn film "Bringing up baby"

RJ

[Viva-Tonal]

Office of Price Administration it was.

35667 would have been issued in the early 1940s, before WW2. It was possible to get 4 ½ minutes of music onto a 10" 78 side by cutting grooves closer together than was typical practice. They perhaps used a cutting pitch of around 136 lines per inch instead of 100 or 104. (Edison's DDs were all 150 lpi, permitting those sides clocking in at almost 5 minutesd on a 10 inch. 80 rpm side.)

Certainly closer grooving was possible earlier on for lateral records but record durability would have been sacrificed, given the players then in use. After WW2 I think longer records began to appear, when relatively gentler players became more commonplace. I have several 1949 Red Seals with quite close grooving, among them 'What is a boy' recited by Jan Peerce running 4.14 on a 10 inch, and I have a few Mario Lanza 12 inch sides over 5 minutes a side. (I remember seeing long ago a V-Disc of 'Fish market' by Gene Krupa that ran well past 7 minutes on one 12 inch side, as an extreme case.)

[richardh]

Here in the UK in 1930 there was a record label called "4 in 1" which basically was a 10" disk with two almost full length songs on each side. The grooves were extreemly fine and as you say couldn't survive long being played with the pick ups then in common use. Consequently it is very hard to find one in good condition. I do have one and the 10" disk comes in at about 5 min 30s for each side. But the grooves are ultra fine to achieve this on a 78 rpm disk.

Here is this particular 4 in 1 disk (well one side of it anyway!)

http://www.box.net/shared/mrljjbggwc

RJ

[Henry]

The grooves on my 10" "Sweet Sue" are definitely finer than usual, at least by my eyeballs. The center runoff and label size are the same as a "normal" 10" 78.

I only know Fats Waller's version of "I Can't Give You Anything But Love, Baby" and it's a real hoot the way he does it!

Viva-Tonal, as to dating of 35667, how about album C-29? It's possible that the album was issued later on, either during or right after the War.

[Viva-Tonal]

I'm guessing the dubbing was made in the summer of 1940, with the album released later that year.

Here's what I found on 78discography.com about the titles in C-29, HOT JAZZ CLASSICS: BIX BEIDERBECKE:

35664 BIX BEIDERBECKE AND HIS NEW ORLEANS LUCKY SEVEN:

'Royal garden blues' (dub from Okeh matrix W.81519, recorded 5 October 1927)
'Goose pimples' (dub from Okeh matrix W.81568, recorded 25 October 1927)

35665 BIX AND HIS GANG:

'Thou swell' (dub from Okeh matrix W.400617, recorded 17 April 1928)
'Louisiana' (dub from Okeh matrix W.401139, recorded 21 September 1928)

35666 BIX AND HIS GANG:

'Old man river' (dub from Okeh matrix W.400994, recorded 7 July 1928)
'Wa da da' (dub from Okeh matrix W.400995, recorded 7 July 1928)

35667 PAUL WHITEMAN AND HIS ORCHESTRA:
'Sweet sue, just you' (dub from 12" Columbia matrix W.98584, renumbered W.24050, recorded 18 September 1928)
TRAM, BIX & LANG:
'For no reason at all in C' (dub from Okeh matrix W.81085, recorded 13 May 1927)