Wavy Veneer Repair?

[XCaptBill]

I have a Columbia Grafonola that had a considerable amount of water damage to the lid. I have done some veneer patches before but not large areas. In this case I decided to try to replace the Mahogany veneer on the whole top of the lid. I went to Woodcrafters to get some pre-glued veneer but they only had unglued veneer in stock. I was apprehensive to use this because I don't have a veneer vacuum press.The clerk suggested that I could apply it and then put it on a flat surface and a heavy weight on it. Unfortunately after the glue cured, the veneer has a couple of small raised waves in it. They are not huge and depending on the light and angle are not very noticeable, but I see it and they are definitely there.

I have seen some people recommend using a hot iron or a heat gun to reconstitute the glue and flatten the waves. Does anyone have experience with this?

I could remove the veneer and try again, but the next attempt could be worse, so I'm not sure what I want to do.

Suggestions or advice would be appreciated?

Thanks

Bill

[Curt A]

What kind of glue did you use to apply the veneer? That will determine whether or not you can remove it or flatten it. If the ridges aren't too high, you could use a sander to level them out, as long as you don't sand through the veneer...

[XCaptBill]

I used Titebond III. I did sand them a little and it helped but I'm afraid if I sand too much more the substrate will show through.

[Curt A]

I used Titebond III. I did sand them a little and it helped but I'm afraid if I sand too much more the substrate will show through.

My best guess is that you will have to live with it... Titebond III is not removable, the wood will separate before the glued joint. The next question is - how thick is your veneer? If you are careful, and the waves are not too high AND the veneer is thick enough, you should be able to sand them out. Next choice: sand off the new veneer with a belt sander and start over... because you are not going to remove it any other way - unfortunately.

If you try to sand out the waves and accidentally sand through the veneer, it may be possible to fill those spots or blend them in with a shellac stick...

[Curt A]

http://www.titebond.com/Libraries/Liter ... .sflb.ashx

[Bruce]

I recommend that you leave the sanding to the absolute last. Veneer is usually too thin to take out waves or bubbles.

If you are confident that you evenly spread the glue in the first application, so that there should be glue below the raised areas, then I would try with your wife's clothing iron. Protect the wood with a dish cloth and heat until the glue is re-amalgamated. Then clamp down or weight down to ensure it is flat while drying.

Watch for glue seeping through the wood to the surface. You may end up gluing on your clamps. If it is seeping through try wiping down with a damp cloth as this glued surface will not take stain well.
You can also place wax paper between the veneer and the clamped wood.

Please note that if you use your wife's clothing iron be prepared to buy her a new one and if you use her dish cloth you will be buying a new one.

Best of Luck

Bruce

[EarlH]

You should learn to use hide glue for that. With hide glue, you don't need to use clamps and if you don't get it down right, you can warm it back up with an iron for a few days after and get it down the way you want it. It will also pull tight as well. If you add a little bit of vinegar to it, it will slow down the drying time some, but usually that's not an issue with something like you are working on. You can use clamps to hold it down while it sets up as well. And if you do it that way, make sure the board is good and warm and you have some wax paper between the two when you clamp it.
Paint remover will remove the titebond. If you water the titebond down first, you can use it as well. You may get some glue through the surface but you should be able to get it off well enough on the surface with paint remover that it will stain ok. Hide glue will come off with some warm water if it creeps through to the surface.

[tinovanderzwan]

You should learn to use hide glue for that. With hide glue, you don't need to use clamps and if you don't get it down right, you can warm it back up with an iron for a few days after and get it down the way you want it. It will also pull tight as well. If you add a little bit of vinegar to it, it will slow down the drying time some, but usually that's not an issue with something like you are working on. You can use clamps to hold it down while it sets up as well. And if you do it that way, make sure the board is good and warm and you have some wax paper between the two when you clamp it.
Paint remover will remove the titebond. If you water the titebond down first, you can use it as well. You may get some glue through the surface but you should be able to get it off well enough on the surface with paint remover that it will stain ok. Hide glue will come off with some warm water if it creeps through to the surface.

i agree an important thing is its reversable a good amount of heat(from an iron) maybe in combination with damp cloths will take the veneer right off i also use bookbinders glue a handy thing for small bits of veneer or those nasty blistering transfers to make them stable

[EarlH]

To me, hide glue is like shellac. The more you use it, the more you will like it. It does take some getting used to though. And regular white glue, like titebond and those types of glues have a place in restoration work. Gorilla glue does not. It's awful stuff and has no business being used on antiques for any reason (Like the furniture polish Pledge). For one thing, it swells up when it dries and forces the joints back open. My brother took woodworking courses at Palomar College when he was out in California and met some really interesting and well known wood workers. One of them told him to glue two pieces of wood together with gorilla glue and hang it on the wall. So he glued a 4" square of scrap wood to another board and drilled a hole in the larger flat board and hung it on the wall like the guy told him. And about 3 years later, it just fell off. Ha! I suppose polyurethane glues have a use somewhere, but not with antiques. Well, King Tut may be an exception.
Of course these old phonograph cabinets were all done up in hide glue when they were new, but they did that work in very hot spaces and also had clamping boxes to put that stuff together in. I saw an old old furniture clamping box when I visited Palomar with my brother 10 years ago. They could do that work quickly and get it all done before the glue began to set up. It's kind of hard to do anything like that in your basement or garage so that's where the regular resin glues are nice. But you can also get that stuff (Elmer's type glues) off with heat and paint remover. It's not easy, but it can be done. It's not always a simple task to get a joint apart with hide glue, but hot brown vinegar will usually make short work of it.
I did read in an 1880's woodworking and manipulating book a few days ago that hot linseed oil will work to remove veneer and if you are careful about it, it will come up in one piece and you'll be able to wash the old glue off, and re-use the piece. It needs to be kept hot until the glue gives itself up. I'm going to have to try that sometime and see if it really works like the author says it will. They were addressing how to get a bubble in veneer to flay back down flat. The thing that would be nice about the linseed oil thing is that it probably wouldn't raise the grain terribly and might leave the stain intact. But linseed oil will darken some woods, but I also don't know if washing that stuff off with thinner would return it to the color it started out as.
Anyway, veneer repair is an interesting and vexing subject, that's for sure. Get some scraps of veneer or buy some cheap veneer off ebay and practice glueing it down to scraps of wood until you feel comfortable doing it. If you do use hide glue, you'll find out what "pull" is and why both sides of the board need to be treated the same way if you want the board to lay flat. I don't know if the guy is still in business or not, but Bob Morgan used to sell 2 ply veneers and they worked really good for a situation like your lid. He used to be on the internet and I just haven't had any projects come up for a few years now that I needed to get in touch with him. The two ply veneer will lay down flat for you and will glue down very nicely, especially if you don't have a whole lot of experience. I re-veneered the side of a Victrola XVI about 12-14 years ago with two ply mahogany I bought from him and it really turned out nice.
Well, it looks like you got me on a roll tonight. I've given you a whole book to read through, so I'll shut up now... Ha!

[XCaptBill]

Thanks for all the replies so far.

A friend of mine that worked in a cabinet shop said they used lacquer thinner to remove the veneer. He said they would use a thin bladed tool or razor to start it and apply the lacquer thinner as you worked across the piece.

At this point though, I'm reluctant to remove it and would rather try to flatten the waves.