Stylus tracking problems?

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Shlomo
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Re: Stylus tracking problems?

Post by Shlomo »

Bart,

Are the styli that encounter these tracking problems relatively new? Or have they had many hours of play on them already?

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bart1927
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Re: Stylus tracking problems?

Post by bart1927 »

bart1927 wrote:
I've experimented a lot, and while I noticed that stylus size can make a huge difference on a lot of records (not on all, though), I haven't been able to hear any difference between elliptical and conical.
After some more careful listening, I found that on some records there is indeed an audible difference between conical and elliptical styli, though the difference is not huge. Often it is claimed that elliptical styli reproduce higher fidelity than conicals, but on 78's with their limited frequency range, I haven't been able to detect this. Sometimes it seems that with an elliptical there is a tiny increase in background hiss.

The most noticeable difference is with records that have wear. It doesn't even have to be a lot of wear. For instance, when a record has a needle run or a stressed groove that causes a momentarily distortion in the sound, the distortion is less pronounced when I use a conical stylus.

But it's not necessary to buy a whole range of styli, though. When you're mostly into 1920's music like I am, and you want to buy just one stylus, a 3.25 or 3.5 TC would be a good allrounder.

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bart1927
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Re: Stylus tracking problems?

Post by bart1927 »

Shlomo wrote:Bart,

Are the styli that encounter these tracking problems relatively new? Or have they had many hours of play on them already?
They're not that new (I think most of them are 6 years old), but they don't get much use. The majority is only used for making transfers, for casual playback I always use the 3.5 TC.
Last edited by bart1927 on Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Wolfe
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Re: Stylus tracking problems?

Post by Wolfe »

I'd check the anti-skating and make sure the arm is centered. Then perhaps dial in the tracking force a little more.

A 3.5 TE is a great choice for many early electricals of the 1920's. It's my default choice, unless something tips me off that I should experiment.

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bart1927
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Re: Stylus tracking problems?

Post by bart1927 »

Wolfe wrote:I'd check the anti-skating and make sure the arm is centered. Then perhaps dial in the tracking force a little more.

A 3.5 TE is a great choice for many early electricals of the 1920's. It's my default choice, unless something tips me off that I should experiment.
What do you mean by a centered arm?

Both anti-skating and tracking force are at 5 grams. The recommendation for these Stanton styli is 2-5 grams.

These Stanton carts and styli are getting collectible in their own way, by the way. Apparently Stanton was purchased by Gibson, and they stopped manufacturing styli and carts. KAB doesn't carry them anymore, and Nauck is almost sold out. Since they're pretty expensive I'm considering to send the lp styli I have laying around (they came with the cartridges) to Expert Stylus directly, to get them retipped, that way I can save some money, and I will have a supply of custom styli that will last me a lifetime.

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Wolfe
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Re: Stylus tracking problems?

Post by Wolfe »

I mean that when the arm is unweighted at the front (take the headshell off) and tilts upward, it should naturally "float" to the center of the playing area more or less, without moving itself east or west. Proper skating adjustment (and a levelled turntable) will accomplish that and help your tracking. Because that's what you have - a mechanical tracking issue. Not dirt, or improper stylus, or any other flibbery floo flah.

Gee, that's a concerning situation with the custom styli. Expert will still be in business to retip styli for 78 RPM. but they are no longer selling new ones ? Because Stanton was bought ? Hmmmmm.

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bart1927
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Re: Stylus tracking problems?

Post by bart1927 »

Wolfe wrote:I mean that when the arm is unweighted at the front (take the headshell off) and tilts upward, it should naturally "float" to the center of the playing area more or less, without moving itself east or west. Proper skating adjustment (and a levelled turntable) will accomplish that and help your tracking. Because that's what you have - a mechanical tracking issue. Not dirt, or improper stylus, or any other flibbery floo flah.

Gee, that's a concerning situation with the custom styli. Expert will still be in business to retip styli for 78 RPM. but they are no longer selling new ones ? Because Stanton was bought ? Hmmmmm.
I'm afraid I don't really understand it. Are you telling me that the arm is supposed to float towards the centre spindle? Because, my arm doesn't float towards the centre, it floats towards the arm rest. When I put the anti-skating at 0, the arm doesn't float at all, it just stays in place. But according to these YouTube instructions that is actually the correct behavior (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIBtZR941Yw)

Expert Stylus doesn't sell retipped Stantons anymore. If you have any Stanton styli yourself, they can retip them for you. They do still sell retipped Shure and Ortofon styli, but then of course you would have to invest in new cartridges also.

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Wolfe
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Re: Stylus tracking problems?

Post by Wolfe »

Ortofon, eh ? That's interesting. I like Ortofon. I just hope Expert continues to offer some kind of service, as they are about the only game in town for non generic styli. A look at e-bay sees that used Stanton 500 carts are still selling for little money. Considering how many of those were made I have to believe that will be the case for some time to come.


I mean the arm should center right about the playing surface of where the record sits, halfway or so btw the spindle and the arm rest. If's drifting, you're anti-skate is off. Considering you track at a fairly hefty 5 grams it may be a moot point anyway.

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bart1927
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Re: Stylus tracking problems?

Post by bart1927 »

Wolfe wrote:Ortofon, eh ? That's interesting. I like Ortofon. I just hope Expert continues to offer some kind of service, as they are about the only game in town for non generic styli. A look at e-bay sees that used Stanton 500 carts are still selling for little money. Considering how many of those were made I have to believe that will be the case for some time to come.


I mean the arm should center right about the playing surface of where the record sits, halfway or so btw the spindle and the arm rest. If's drifting, you're anti-skate is off. Considering you track at a fairly hefty 5 grams it may be a moot point anyway.
If the YouTube video is correct, the arm is supposed to be drifting towards the arm rest, if your anti-skating is functioning properly. That is, of course, when there's no record on the turntable. When you're playing a record, the rotation of the record is pulling the arm inwards, and to prevent the stylus from skipping, the anti-skating is supposed to provide an equal and opposite force outwards, that cancels out the inwards pull.

I'm not that keen on buying used styli on Ebay. You never know how they were used. I've checked Ebay for NOS Stanton styli (the ones that fit the 500 series cartridge), but most of them are generic.

Do you think tracking at 5 gr is too much? I've read that for playing 78's a tracking weight of at least 3 grams is necessary. Both cart and stylus should be able to take 5 grams. After all, they were made for DJ's, for scratching, so they shouldn't be too delicate.

Also, I often encounter records (mostly budget labels, but also some Brunswicks) that have a groove problem. When you play the record you can see the arm making jerky horizontal movements, back and forth, especially at the beginning of the record. I don't know what causes it. But when I set the tracking force (and anti skating) too low, it will skip. Pathé verticals are an even bigger problem.

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Wolfe
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Re: Stylus tracking problems?

Post by Wolfe »

To your last point. That's probably the cantilever being too flimsy. You need something solid there to deal with the forces it has to deal with. A concern if you retip a standard 33 stylus for hard 78 duty.

I have the modern Shure (green) tip mounted on a Shure M97 xe cartridge that I use for casual listening to all kinds of 78's. But with that Shure stylus it still shakes around on tough (off cneter) records because the cantilever is kind of soft, and forget about warped records. I track about 3 ½ grams and never have seen the need for more. Depends on the total mass of the arm, though.

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