Low Power

[tomb]

Try taking the 2/4 gear conversion off and see what happens . You may have a dragging gear. You may be able to move the shifter to a point where it is neutral to see if it is the mandrel or the gears. in neutral spin the gears they should be free. Spin the mandrel, as Larry said above, it should spin several times not once. This may be binding.. Also check if your belt is hitting the side when it is running and the belt alignment is good. Tom B

[Phonolair]

Good pictures, they show us what you have.

I would start with the 2 & 4 minute combination gear kit that was added to your machine(no flat spring in this 2&4 setup)

The picture shows its very dirty with old oil and grease. You need to completely disassemble this, thoroughly clean all gears and shafts that the gears run on, reinstall and lube with light oil.

These gear sets draw a lot of power under the best condition and to start with a dirty set will only add to your problem.

As mentioned above you should do the same cleaning to the governor also. A dirty governor and gear is only trouble for a smooth running motor.

Keep at it, you'll get there.

Larry Crandell

[martinola]

Hi Bangster,
The bedplate looks like it's for either a late Model A or for an early model B. You have extra holes in the bedplate for some now missing apparatus. The switch to the model B seems to be around serial #244000 or so. Another thing that would confirm if it was a "B" or not would be the presence of springs mounting the motor to the underside of the bedplate. The 2&4 minute gearing is an add-on for earlier two minute machines that was sold after the introduction of the 4 minute record in 1908.

You mentioned that you used vaseline on the gears. I've found that it's easy to over-grease the gears and make them too sticky. If I use grease at all, I tend to thin it out. Straight vaseline either in the gear trains or in the mainspring barrel is just too thick. Also, you really can't fairly evaluate the strength of your mainspring until it is removed, properly cleaned and re-installed. If you find rust on either the mainspring or in the barrel, you'll want to sand or polish it to make it smooth.

Sometimes I find the old crud on these mechanisms is so gooey and sticky that it takes two attempts.I agree with Larry. Were it mine, I would disassemble everything and re-clean using Lacquer Thinner and a toothbrush. You might even need to resort to using toothpicks to remove the deep-set crud in the gears. You don't have to do it all at the same time, but I do recommend that you re-do everything.

As you reassemble the components, you can then evaluate everything for free-turning. Everything should coast to some extent after you give it a turn. Start with getting the lower gear train to turn freely before you mount it to the motor frame. Then clean and re-install the governor and look for free-turning there. I'm sure I'm really not telling you anything you haven't already thought of. The solution is out there and you will get it.

Regards,
Martin

[phonogfp]

Sometimes I find the old crud on these mechanisms is so gooey and sticky that it takes two attempts.I agree with Larry. Were it mine, I would disassemble everything and re-clean using Lacquer Thinner and a toothbrush. You might even need to resort to using toothpicks to remove the deep-set crud in the gears. You don't have to do it all at the same time, but I do recommend that you re-do everything.

And ditto.

I had to do this with a 4-clip Standard I bought in October. Someone had smeared/sprayed some gunk on the motor that had hardened and turned green. I tried my usual shortcuts (for really dirty motors) of spraying down the motor with solvent and letting it sit for a day or two before disassembly and final cleanup. Nope. The stuff was like molasses and impervious to anything short of 00 steel wool, toothbrush, and toothpicks. It took about 4 hours, and I did it over 2 days, but the result was a quiet, smooth-running motor that now looks brand new!

George P.

[tomb]

Martin is right about the gear plate being a standard A. The speed adjust screw should run from the top plate thru the plate to the motor. If it is not adjusted right there will be drag and slow it down. Can you display a picture of the motor front where the adjustment screw hole is . Lift up the plate and it will be in the front on the right hand side. There may be an internal one added. I could be a one inch bolt that is knurled on one side...Tom B

[bangster]

Hi. I'm back!
I don't know much about models but mine appears to look exactly like this one: http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... f=2&t=5021

Speed adjusting screw is underneath the plate: no knob sticking up.

The pic of the dirty upper gear train was taken before I disassembled it and cleaned it.
because y'all suggest it might still be the cause of the power loss, I took it down again, cleaned it again, polished all its pivots, lubed it with very light oil to eliminate drag as much as possible. Result: now it will actually start and run with a cylinder in place, but bogs down as soon as the reproducer touches the cylinder.

So after all this, I'm still thinking mainspring. I'll take it out of the barrel, clean it as I would a clock mainspring, and see what happens. But I have a question. With clock springs, there's a rough and ready rule of how to tell the extent to which a barreled mainspring is "set" or collapsed by the number of coils in the void between the tight outer coils and the center. The more coils in the void, the more set it is. A brand new clock spring will have no more than 1 or 2 coils in the void.

Is there a similar rule for phonograph mainsprings? Here's a pic of mine, prior to cleaning.

If this were a clock, I would say it has lost much or most of its potential power. What does it look like to y'all?

bangster

[bangster]

Here's the spring out of the barrel. Before I spend any time on it, does it look like a healthy mainspring to you? It doesn't to me; but I'm out of my sphere here.
bangster

Edison Spring & barrel.jpg (215.73 KiB) Viewed 1705 times

[alang]

You are right, I would expect it to spread out over several square feet, maybe even a square yard if it's very strong. I would look for a replacement.

Andreas

[martinola]

Bangster,
Although your case appears to be a Tall style case (used in the model B and early Cs), your bedplate appears to be a New Style model A. Your open-spoked spring barrel is typical for the model A (though some were used on the very earliest model B machines. Your motor will determine if it is an A or a B. The serial number would also point to it's being one or the other.


The spring as removed looks like all of the springs that I've successfully reused in my Standards. While there are no guarantees, I'd say you have a 70 percent chance that you will not need to buy a replacement.

I'd sand/polish the inside of the barrel to reduce further drag and check the spring for cracks, rust and rough spots. If all looks good, I'd lube with thinned grease and re-install. Check each assembly for free-turning as you re-assemble and you should be good to go.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Regards,
Martin

[JerryVan]

Based on the spring photo, yes, it's definitely the spring. Looks like every weak spring I've ever removed, maybe worse.