Needle can make more difference that you might think.

[larryh]

Since I have moved from mostly edison disc to standard phonographs I have learned quite a bit about the differences needles create in the overall sound. On the Columbia 800 some records are way too loud and produce unpleasant overtones. The first try at helping that is to use the next size smaller needle. I have from loud to soft to filter point soft needles to use. The cactus needles I haven't had much experience with due to not having a cutter to keep them in playing condition. If I find a needle that comes closer to the sound I want I then start to lower the needle in the reproducer. A marked difference is often heard from moving the needle from the full insertion which used to be my only option I thought. Giving it a bit of clearance from being all the way in often reduces noisy overtones. I would guess the top of the needle is in some way increasing slight feedback from the contact with the top of the holder. By lowering the needle sometimes by quite a bit you can dramatically change the way a record is reproduced. Often I hear the objectionable feedbacks go away almost completely by finding the best point to play a record that is too powerful sounding for the needle to handle its full inserted position. Its given me a chance to play some records successfully I thought couldn't be played.

Another thing however is that reproducers and horn sizes also are amazingly different. On my Brunswick or Telefunken portables almost any record with a higher volume level is very difficult to adjust in this manner, although some do respond. The design of the Columbia Viva Tonal reproducer seems more forgiving to using a range of needle volumes without over driving. Of course at a certain period in recording records simply have more recorded sound than the mechanical reproducers can handle. If I run across that I put those aside and use them only on my electrical turntables. Perhaps some of the European late acoustic phonographs may have a better ability to reproduce those latter frequencies better than their earlier counterparts, it would seem so. Unfortunately I don't run into those around here.

[Marco Gilardetti]

Dear Larry, I'm glad you've found out the usefulness of "toned" needles, I'm just amazed that an experienced collector - like you seem to be - didn't find it out earlier. But it's not the first time that I reckon that in the USA there is in no way the same attention to needles (and tins and alike) that, traditionally, there is in Europe.

I second all of your comments about the usefulness of the approriate needle's tone for each record. I happen to use soft tone or half tone needles in 90% of cases, full tone needles in the remaining 10% of cases (especially when I want to impress guests). In my experience, though, there is no record that can't be played on an acoustic machine provided that an appropriate needle is used. However, extremely soft tone needles, like Laubscher or Ondulette, are hard to find and are getting scarcer and scarcer, so it may make no sense to dig for them. Many of these tins are being refilled with generic needles by unscrupulous sellers, by the way.

Amongst the contemporary needles, I especially recommend the "EXTRA SOFT" tone needles that Soundgen sells on eBay: they are excellently made, and they closely compare with HMV soft tone needles.

As a final note, I don't think that late European acoustic gramophones perform any better than earlier ones from this point of view. Most of the difference in this regard is made by the soundbox alone.

[epigramophone]

I second the recommendations for Extra Soft Tone needles and for Soundgen (a member of this forum) as an eBay seller.

My everyday player is an E.M.Ginn Expert Minor. When I use a Meltrope soundbox instead of the EMG box I get excellent sound quality with Extra Soft Tone, ample volume from the external horn and minimal surface noise.

Soft Tone needles suit my cabinet machines best with most records, but occasionally Medium Tone is required. If Loud Tone is needed on a big machine there is probably something wrong with the soundbox.

For portables, Medium Tone indoors and Loud Tone outdoors.

I avoid needles which claim to be "Long Playing". Logic would suggest that these are made of harder material and will therefore wear the record rather than the needle.

[CarlosV]

I use thorns to play most of my records pressed pre-1940 (and that are not worn). They act as natural lowpass filters and reduce the scratch.

For records that cannot take thorns, like worn-out discs, WWII-time US pressings, vinyls or later 50s pressings, I use Laubscher pianissimos, these are excellent needles, but not that easy to find anymore, as Marco pointed out.

I gave up on bamboos, after buying all kinds (including the Japanese aged one) and playing in several types of gramophones: most of the time they wear out before the end of the record, even when the disc is near pristine condition.

[larryh]

Thanks for the comments. Actually I knew somewhat about the advantages of the various volume needles all along, but the idea of adjusting the depth of them into the reproducer to get better effects I hadn't been exposed to. Seems like you all are mostly European record fans and there the mechanical machines were used much longer. I watch a lot of you tube 30's and 40's movies and its pretty common for them to be using mostly portable players well into that period. I didn't have much luck with the Cactus needles either. I used to have several cutters but I sold them a while back. I tired cutting them by hand but nothing worked. I have a lot of thorn trees in my woods here and I have used those on some records as experiments. They did fair but most likely aren't the right kind of thorn tree? I have purchased the 1000 lot package of soft tone needles from Watts Musical Americana. They last me quite a long time. I haven't any way to determine what quality they are, but they have worked well for me over the years. I have a number of original boxes of medium and loud tone Veribest multi play needles. Again I have no way to determine the ware factor but It seems one can get a number of plays from them before any noticeable sound difference is heard. I try to change them out before that happens most of the time. The boxes say 15 play on them. They are a sort of bronze tone metal what ever they are made of.

[CarlosV]

I didn't have much luck with the Cactus needles either. I used to have several cutters but I sold them a while back. I tired cutting them by hand but nothing worked. I have a lot of thorn trees in my woods here and I have used those on some records as experiments. They did fair but most likely aren't the right kind of thorn tree?

I have a number of original boxes of medium and loud tone Veribest multi play needles. Again I have no way to determine the ware factor but It seems one can get a number of plays from them before any noticeable sound difference is heard. I try to change them out before that happens most of the time. The boxes say 15 play on them. They are a sort of bronze tone metal what ever they are made of.

Larry, the cactus/thorn needles sold commercially were all chemically hardened to give them the resistance required to follow record grooves, and they were also shaped to a more or less cylindrical format to allow them to fit in the sharpeners. I think these are the reasons for the problems you had with fresh-picked thorns. On the metallic multi-play needles, I tried some (not the particular brand you mention) and gave up, they wear out the discs even after a single play (seen from the amount of dust collected at the needle at the end of the play). The exception is the Laubscher that I mentioned, it is gold-plated, and the gold is soft enough to play with no or minimum wear even on a heavy acoustic gramophone arm. However, I only use these to play two sides of a record and then throw them away.

[Marco Gilardetti]

Seems like you all are mostly European record fans and there the mechanical machines were used much longer. I watch a lot of you tube 30's and 40's movies and its pretty common for them to be using mostly portable players well into that period.

Maybe what you say is also a factor, but in my opinion most of this attitude is due to different current inclinations. In the States, perhaps because of the overabundance of nice external horn machines, portable gramophones are basically treated like rubbish. In Europe, perhaps also because of the excruciating scarcity of external horn / floor machines, together with lack of storage space due to much smaller houses, portable gramophones are regarded and collected, and the most fine ones sell for respectable prices.

Concerning the technique of adjusting the depth of needles into the reproducer's holder, it is indeed effective as the compliance of the needle will increase when not fully inserted. As a side note, this was also implemented in factory-made needles: you have probably observed that loud tone needles are in general thicker but that at least some of them were also made a bit shorter. However, moving the needle along the reproducer's holder also has the effect of changing the horizontal tracking angle and the overhang, as it moves forward the point of contact between the needle's tip and the record in respect to the pivot point.

It has to be remarked that most pre-orthophonic arms have an awful geometry in any case, so the increase of distortion and surface wear due to the altered tracking angle may be negligible. But when an orthophonic, viva tonal or any other arm with good geometry is used, it is perhaps advisable to change tone by using the appropriate type of needle only.

I agree with epigramophone and Carlos that long-playing needles are most probably made with a harder alloy and are thus not gentle on records, especially when you switch from one record to another (they would be best used to play the same record over and over). I would recommend not using them at least on near-MINT records that show no trace of previuos wear. I have also digged for long-play needles in the past, especially during that span in which unused needles became scarce, but today thanks to the internet there is a florid market of new needles, some of which are of outstanding quality. Long play needles may be convenient when one goes quickly through a stack of newly purchased records, but even in this case it's perhaps more advisable (and more convenient) to use an electric record player altogether.

[larryh]

Some great observations here for sure. I will have to check after a play to see what one of those 15 play needles is creating in the way to dust. Of course its a bit difficult if the records have a build up of soil in them already, which many old records one finds do have. Its another topic perhaps but I have never been able to really figure a way to get the grooves totally clean after receiving a new batch of them. I have a Elac, Miracord H. 50 and a Dual 1009 changer, which can be used manually as well. Even when I clean the records by washing them with some dawn detergent and drying them with several towels they tend to build up fluff on the stylus points for the first play or so. Any good ways to actually get the inner grooves to release the build up of dust or dirt in the groove? The same with the acoustic machines. The first plays will produce fluff on the points till they have been played though at least once.

I used to sell some packaged filter point needles distributed by "Duo Tone" of at the time Florida. They told me they were swiss made needles, and I think if I am not mistaken by the company that you all have mentioned as now hard to find. Mine had a very thin point. Recently I got a couple packs off ebay and was surprised to find that they had a thicker filter point which didn't produce the softer tones I was expecting. I should have kept those because I had hundreds of them when I was selling some of them. I think I might have 20 packages left. They seem to have less surface noise and tend to play a overly loud record better. One thing I have noticed, and might just be my ears, is that it seems that a thinner needle may not pick up as much detail of the sound as a louder needle will. Sometimes when going from one volume to the louder I can hear more of the detail and I am wondering if that is because the points are riding the grooves in a way that would bring out more of the sound? That may be totally bogus but it is something that seemed to be happening.

[Marco Gilardetti]

Concerning the first point, it's very difficult to clean the grooves in depth. Many people suggest to play the cleaned record once with a super-soft tone needle like a Laubscher Pianissimo right after cleaning. Indeed, these needles are very thin and will dig out the dirt from the most recessed bottom of the groove. Once this operation is carried out, if the record is kept in a clean dry place, it will be clean forever.

About your second point, my educated guess is that softer needles may leave behind sound details in some cases for three reasons. The first is pretty obvious: the sound may get as low in volume as the background noise is. When the signal-to-noise ratio equals 1, the sound is mostly unintelligible. The other reason may be that soft tone needles don't change the volume of sound in strict terms, but they act by altering the frequency response preminently (to the best of my knowledge, this point was first discovered and explained by Paul C. Edie on his website The Victor Victrola Page). If a specific sound lies primarily on a restricted range of frequencies that happen to be dampened by the change of needle type, said sound may become less hearable in proportion to the overall sound emitted by the gramophone. Third reason is that the human ear is not equally sensible to all frequencies at all volumes. When the volume is lowered, some frequencies are harder to hear and this may give the impression that some sound is almost disappeared. This is a general effect and is not strictly related to gramophones and needles: it happens even with CDs etc.

[Henry]

Another factor not often mentioned is the directionality of sounds according to their frequency. High-pitched sound, in general, is much more directional than low-pitched. This explains why it's hard to block out that obnoxious "thumpa-thumpa-thumpa" car stereo (low frequency), whereas you can block or severely reduce the volume of high pitches merely by turning your head.