Need help,varying speed when played,not much power in spring

[1776J]

Hello.

I'm new to the forum but had watched in the past and just never got around to registering.

I'm hoping that maybe someone with knowledge of these issues would lend some solid advice.

I have an early 1920s Victrola VV4-3 floor model Victrola.


My two issues I'm looking to solve:

1. Spring seems to unwind fast and does not have enough power to play more than one 10" record.
Also starts off slow when switch is released to play record.

2. Sound warbles a little as the speed of the record is varied as it is playing. You can hear it go up and down as it plays, nothing drastic, but its there and gets very noticeable.



- Can the first issue be that it simply needs a good cleaning and that this particular "one-spring" setup just never had enough umph to get through more than one record?
*(I'm very confident that the spring is the correct one as I sent away to APSCO for them to install it in the barrel)*

- Can the second issue be that the governor shaft is worn on the end(s) or that it is bent? Could the little brass plate at the end of the shaft be warped a little causing it to vary its speed?

Thank you very much for your time and any help provided in advance!

[Brad]

Welcome to the board!

Here are some of my thoughts, others will chime in as well.

Slow starting is not uncommon. It could be that something in the drivetrain is binding or does not have sufficient play. This could also account for not having much power. Check everthing here. It is amazing how somethign that is a little tight can slow things down.

Be very careful as there might be tension still in the spring.

Only getting one record (2 sides) per winding is not uncommom for a single spring.

The warble may be caused by an unbalanced governor, or a broken gov. spring or lose gov. ball. Check for that and watch the gov. balls as they spin to see if one appears to be out of sync. with the others. The brass limit plate rarely gets damaged. If it was dirty or had corrosion it could cause a warble as the dirt impacts the free spin.

I'll let others add to this.

[Henry]

What Brad said. In addition, if you remove the governor shaft from its bearings, first be VERY sure that the motor spring is *totally and completely* wound down, otherwise you will be in for a nasty surprise when the spring tension is suddenly released!!!

[martinola]

Hi 1776J.

"Look For The Dog" lists the Consolette/4-3 as a two spring motor. This would be two springs in a single barrel. If the motor is like my VV-210, you should get more playing time out of it than that. As Brad has mentioned, it could simply be that something is binding. The governor should have a very slight end play. The uneven speed issue would seem to point to the governor. Obviously, it's going to play better is everything has been cleaned and properly lubed. I'd be tempted to oil it up as is, and plan on giving it a work-out for an hour or so. Sometimes if something sits a while it takes some running-in to get things running smoothly. In more extreme cases, the only real remedy is to disassemble, clean and lube the motor.

While less likely, it could be that one of the springs has come unhooked in the barrel and you are essentially getting only the power of one. If you've tried everything else and it's still not right, I'd suggest calling APSCO and see if they can help. They've been around a while and should stand behind their work. Good luck and let us know how it's going.

Regards,
Martin

[1776J]

Welcome to the board!

Here are some of my thoughts, others will chime in as well.

Slow starting is not uncommon. It could be that something in the drivetrain is binding or does not have sufficient play. This could also account for not having much power. Check everthing here. It is amazing how somethign that is a little tight can slow things down.

Be very careful as there might be tension still in the spring.

Only getting one record (2 sides) per winding is not uncommom for a single spring.

The warble may be caused by an unbalanced governor, or a broken gov. spring or lose gov. ball. Check for that and watch the gov. balls as they spin to see if one appears to be out of sync. with the others. The brass limit plate rarely gets damaged. If it was dirty or had corrosion it could cause a warble as the dirt impacts the free spin.

I'll let others add to this.

I don't even get one complete record actually. (I should have clarified that). No, what I meant to say was that I get one "song", not "record."

The gov. springs and weights are new replacements, so they're ok.

[1776J]

Hi 1776J.

"Look For The Dog" lists the Consolette/4-3 as a two spring motor. This would be two springs in a single barrel. If the motor is like my VV-210, you should get more playing time out of it than that. As Brad has mentioned, it could simply be that something is binding. The governor should have a very slight end play. The uneven speed issue would seem to point to the governor. Obviously, it's going to play better is everything has been cleaned and properly lubed. I'd be tempted to oil it up as is, and plan on giving it a work-out for an hour or so. Sometimes if something sits a while it takes some running-in to get things running smoothly. In more extreme cases, the only real remedy is to disassemble, clean and lube the motor.

While less likely, it could be that one of the springs has come unhooked in the barrel and you are essentially getting only the power of one. If you've tried everything else and it's still not right, I'd suggest calling APSCO and see if they can help. They've been around a while and should stand behind their work. Good luck and let us know how it's going.

Regards,
Martin

It's actually a floor model instead on the table top version (I'm guessing that would be referred to as a "console" model rather than a floor model???) I do know that its supposed to have only one spring,.. then a little while later they went to two springs.

[OrthoFan]

No, what I meant to say was that I get one "song", not "record."

The gov. springs and weights are new replacements, so they're ok.

That doesn't mean they may not need a slight adjustment. If the speed slows down and then speeds up, the governor seating may be to blame. The governor should spin freely, but there must be no back and forth movement along the shaft. If there is, the turntable speed will vary.

Try moving the governor back and forth. If there is slight movement, you can make the following adjustment:

The governor spindle assembly is held in place by two bearings--one on each side. Each bearing is held in place by a screw. Let the motor run down completely, then loosen the screw for the outer bearing, and push the bearing inward very gently. Tighten the screw and make sure that the governor spins. Then move the governor shaft back and forth to make sure there is no more sideways movement. Test play a record to see if the problem is fixed.

If what you hear is a slight wobbling or shaky sound while the record is playing, then the governor flat springs may not all be the same size, or they may be seated improperly. The flat springs are held in place by small screws--one on each side. To re-seat the flat springs, let the motor run down completely, and then loosen each screw by a few turns. Then insert the crank and turn it just enough so that the governor starts spinning. After it runs down, carefully tighten each screw. (If you still hear a wobbling sound after this is done, then most likely one or more of the flat springs is the wrong size, and a replacement set will have to be ordered.)

----------------------------------------

It sounds like your Victrola has a single spring motor. The dead giveaway, even without looking at the motor, would be a ten inch turntable. A properly serviced single spring motor should be able to play one side of a 12-inch record.

A brief description of the Consolette (4-3) can be found on this page:

http://www.victor-victrola.com/4-3.htm

You can also find instructions about simple motor oiling/lubrication in the various Victor owners manuals on this page -- http://www.nipperhead.com/old/ephemera.htm

----------------------------------

BTW, even before you start with the governor, you might check to see if the turntable's spindle has been messed with. There should be a small post protruding from ONE side of the spindle. (There was a discussion about this awhile back on another forum.) If this has been moved (knocked in) to protrude out of both sides, then it may impact the motor's torque, and the turntable will slow down and speed up.

HTH,
OF

[Jerry B.]

When you very carefully and slowly wind your Victrola do you get to the end of the spring where you can't wind any more or do you wind forever and not reach a point where you can't wind anymore?

[martinola]

Ah! The old "Single-Spring-Early-In-Production" trick. As Maxwell Smart would say: "Sorry about that, Chief". (I should have known to check another source.)

Ortho Fan: if I'm understanding your governor instructions correctly, there should be no play at all? (Not even a little teeny bit?) The reason I ask is that, I've always had to give mine almost a fingernail's thickness of side play to keep from binding. (Maybe I've got something else off that the extra play compensates for...) I'll have to re-investigate how I do things.

Anyway, 1776J: apart from the side-play quibble, I whole-heartedly agree with Ortho Fan's idea of looking at the governor. Let us know how it's going.

Regards,
Martin

[OrthoFan]

Ortho Fan: if I'm understanding your governor instructions correctly, there should be no play at all? (Not even a little teeny bit?) The reason I ask is that, I've always had to give mine almost a fingernail's thickness of side play to keep from binding.
Martin

Hi Martin:

Your point's a good one. A tiny barely detectable bit of shake when you push the governor spindle back and forth is okay. As you note, that will help to keep it from binding.

I brought up the side-play issue because I had a motor overhauled several years ago, and it kept slowing down and speeding up--which it never did before I sent it to the shop. I tried a number of fixes, and was about ready to send it back to the shop, when I found that the culprit was a too-loose governor seating.

Interestingly, another Victrola motor was repaired by the same shop, and they took the liberty of repositioning the spindle's stop post (mentioned in my post above) so that it protruded from both sides of the spindle. (It was only sticking out of one side of the spindle when I first got the Victrola) It was about a year later that I found out that it's supposed to protrude from only one side of the spindle. Repositioning the spindle post cured the off again/on again "WOW" problem I was having with the Victrola. (Need I mention that I never used that shop again to fix any of my Victrolas.)

OF