Tough and Bewildering Motor Problem

[antique1973]

Ok, that 4 spring motor I got for the XVI has some issues. The governor and gears all
appear to be in good working order. However, the performance is very inconsistent. Sometimes it can play through 3 sides of the large records with no problems. Sometimes I will wind it fully, and even on the first record as soon as I put the needle down it drags the turntable to a stop. When the motor runs it will keep a steady 78 RPM until you try to play a record then it may or may not slow down. The barrels bind up and thump violently at times. They rotate, then stop then thump. Often times after the released tension from the thump, it will pick up RPMS again and run better for a bit. The springs were already cleaned and freshly greased by the guy I bought it from. I opened the barrels to make sure and I could find no hardened grease, it all seemed pretty fresh and soft. I added ATF fluid to both barrels and let them soak for a bit. After that, I sprayed them with white lithium grease for added measure. After all this, the springs still bind up and thump and the lack of power problems persist. This is really strange and seems to defy logic. Any ideas guys?

[gramophoneshane]

To me, it sounds like one of two things. It could be the governor might need adjusting, but the thumping sounds like an issue with the lubricant in the barrels.
Normally I would have suggested adding some more grease to the barrels, because not having enough grease can cause the issues you've described, but seeing as someone else greased the springs, you probably dont know what type & brand were used, and I never think it's a good idea to mix grease types.
Mixing them can sometimes result in the spring sliding easily in some spots & sticking in others.
ATF?? Not automatic transmission fluid I hope lol.
Again, this could cause the grease to have an uneven ?viscocity? (I think thats the word Im looking for), which could stop the spring from moving in the barrel evenly.
I'd start by making sure the governor is adjusted properly.
I think the easiest way to do this is to remove the spring barrel/s along with any cogs attached to the centre arbors, and with the rest of the motor together, give the turntable spindle a good hard twist in the direction it would normally move. You should be able to start the governor turning easily, and the governor should keep spinning for at least 4 or 5 seconds- provided of course the speed control felt isn't coming in contact with the governor plate. The longer you can get the governor to spin from one twist, the better the adjustment is. If you have to spin the governor to help it start, or it only spins for a second or two, then it will need to be adjusted.
Once you've found it's sweet spot, you could try putting the spring barrel back & see how it goes, but I think you might have to start over, and clean & regrease the springs again
I've never actually been told how much grease you should or shouldn't have in the barrel, but when I do them, I put a dollop of grease in the bottom of the barrel & spread it around a bit.
I then put the spring in, and fill about half the space in the barrel with grease, so you end up with half grease & half air between all the coils. I then repeat the process for each spring that follows.
This seems to be enough to keep the springs properly lubricated, but not too much that they start oozing grease out of the barrel once in use.

[antique1973]

Yeah, I could have sworn I saw some post about ATF being a good choice. Guess I messed up again.
I will try checking the governor again, and as far as the springs, I will have to gather my energy for what
will be quite a chore. 4 monster springs in two barrels. At least its more practice right?

[OrthoFan]

This sounds like the springs were poorly cleaned before they were re-lubricated, in which case, a thorough re-cleaning and lubrication is needed.

Another possibility is that the springs were cleaned, but improperly placed in the barrels:

From Look for the Dog -- 1994 edition, P-266 (Text from a Victor Repair Manual)-- To Put Back the Old Main Springs in Four Spring Motors:

No 1 or Right Hand spring barrel (having the winding gear). Hook the outer end of one spring into the inner hook in the spring barrel with the coils running from left to right or clockwise and grasping the barrel and springs with both hands, wind the spring into the barrel, being careful to keep a firm hold on both. Lubricate each spring with three teaspoonfuls of Victor Spring Lubricant, put in the separating plate and then the outer spring in the same manner as the first one EXCEPT with the coils running in the opposite direction--right to left or counterclockwise.

No. 2. or Left Hand spring barrel (having the turntable spindle driving gear). Replace springs in barrel as directed above with the exception that the spring should be coiled in the opposite direction--the inner one counterclockwise and the outer one clockwise.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the governor, it should spin freely, but there should be virtually no--or a barely detectable--sideways movement of the shaft. You can easily test this by letting the motor run down and try moving the governor spindle back and forth. If there is noticeable movement or shake, you can unscrew the locking screw holding the outer governor bearing and move the bearing inward slightly.


HTH,
Ortho_Fan

[Henry]

Don't EVER mess with the governor in any way until you have run ALL the tension out of the motor spring(s), or you may get the surprise of your life! You've been warned....

[barnettrp21122]

In regards to your varying speed problem, you might check the speed indicator linkage for any binding, so it doesn't restrict the inward movement of the spinning governor disc. My machine needed adjustment for this.
Bob

[antique1973]

Thanks for all the input guys. I narrowed it down to the springs. I ended up shipping the barrels to the guy I
bought them from since they are still under warranty. Hopefully it will work out in the end.