Noisy Victrola Motors

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hifriday
Victor Jr
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Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:19 am

Noisy Victrola Motors

Post by hifriday »

I recently cleaned and regreased several Victrola motors, but haven't been able to get them to run quietly at speed. Some have quite a chatter, and nearly all have some degree of scraping or uneven sound when the set screw of the governer gear comes around. I mostly followed the steps in chilldude2007's videos. All parts were cleaned with denatured alcohol or WD-40 and the gear teeth scraped with a toothpick before putting back together.

I polished the governor disc with steel wool and replaced the governor springs. I played quite a bit with the position of the governor shaft as well as the governor gear (the soft brass one on the main shaft) which did change the noise, but it was more trading between scraping vs chatter, never really quieting down. Here is a clip of the motors running. I was most disappointed by VV-VIII motor which was the latest one I cleaned and thought it was in the best condition. I didn't really run the motors at speed before cleaning, but I am thinking maybe they were quieter with all the old grease on them.

https://youtu.be/AllBQvF39bM

I'm not sure if I should be using a different grease, maybe something heavier? On some of the motors I used Super Lube grease (synthetic NGLI grade 0) which I'm now guessing might be too soft? On others I used moly-lithium "Extreme Pressure" grease. Also I was a little disheartened today to hear my VV-XIA motor having some light spring thump even though I had cleaned and regreased the springs just a month ago?! It was running fine and played several times a week. Would this mean the "Extreme Pressure" grease is too heavy, or maybe I packed too much grease? I didn't add oil to the canister, maybe I needed to?

(Edit: Originally typed VV-VI, but it's a VV-VIII)
Last edited by hifriday on Sat May 04, 2019 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

VanEpsFan1914
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Re: Noisy Victrola Motors

Post by VanEpsFan1914 »

Something is still out of adjustment. The governor shaft end bearings are "eccentric" bearings, which means they can be turned in their holes to adjust where the shaft lies--further in or out--from the brass drive gear.

Also, ensure that the governor springs are in good condition (they wear out!) and that the weights and springs stilll have washers on them. These will prevent some of the slop in the governor assemblies.

It can help to lubricate the bull gear with STP oil, and for greasing mainsprings I am finding good results with a mixture of molybdenum grease and STP oil additive. Of course it leaks more on the first few runnings but will eventually dump out the excess--you did put tinfoil over the horn, right?

Most Victrolas purr somewhat. Chatter or scraping is not good, but some purring is. They will run more quietly under load; i.e., playing records.

Another possibility is that the cabinet is amplifying the noise. Check the condition of the felt washers between the motor board and the motor frame, and also see about fitting a thin plastic shim between the motorboard & cabinet. I bought a Victrola once missing its back panel. It ran very quietly until I replaced the panel and the motor noises became very loud.

hifriday
Victor Jr
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Re: Noisy Victrola Motors

Post by hifriday »

VanEpsFan1914 wrote:Something is still out of adjustment. The governor shaft end bearings are "eccentric" bearings, which means they can be turned in their holes to adjust where the shaft lies--further in or out--from the brass drive gear.
Are you referring to these guys? They look pretty symmetrical, and I tried rotating them installed in their holes, but it didn't seem to change the shaft position at all. If they were eccentric, would there be a slot at the end for rotating it with a screwdriver? Or do you mean sliding the whole assembly (shaft and bearing ends together)? This does seem to change the positioning of the worm to the gear, but I've tried sliding it up and down without any luck in stopping the rattle.
IMG_20190502_174956.jpg
The governor springs were replaced, and all washers still present. I tried running just the governor shaft without the weights/spring and it was still rattling. Maybe the rattle is coming from the spring gear/main shaft worm instead? As for the shaft bearings, when I installed the notched one close to the board (as in the photo) the worm was too tight, so I had to switch it around and place the longer smooth shaft bearing close to the board.
IMG_20190502_174545.jpg
VanEpsFan1914 wrote: It can help to lubricate the bull gear with STP oil, and for greasing mainsprings I am finding good results with a mixture of molybdenum grease and STP oil additive. Of course it leaks more on the first few runnings but will eventually dump out the excess--you did put tinfoil over the horn, right?
For the spring, I will try some oil additive and see. I don't actually see much runout, I guess since I didn't have oil inside. The spring with the light thumping has the "extreme pressure" moly grease, and for the super-lube grease I used, I was mistaken, it is actually NGLI grade 2 ("peanut butter" consistency).

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VictrolaGuy - Walt
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Re: Noisy Victrola Motors

Post by VictrolaGuy - Walt »

VanEpsFan1914 wrote:Something is still out of adjustment. The governor shaft end bearings are "eccentric" bearings, which means they can be turned in their holes to adjust where the shaft lies--further in or out--from the brass drive gear.
Victor motors do not have adjustable eccentric bushings/bearings. Even if they did it would not help in this case. This is not a case of adjustment, as such; it is damage. No special greases will help.

Note that the loud clicking (or chatter) is present and consistently loud throughout the rotation of the spindle. Listen to the rate of the clicking and watch it turn. There is one "click" for each tooth on the spindle drive gear. I suspect that the teeth of the brass spindle drive gear have been damaged. Listen again to the sound of that chatter and make note of the consistent rate of the clicking.

Having repaired hundreds of motors of all types for folks, experience makes me consider the following scenario. At some point in the life of this motor, while the springs were under significant tension, an attempt was made to reposition or remove the governor. When the governor worm and spindle drive gear suddenly disengage under these conditions the spindle rotates at a dangerously high rate. (By dangerous I mean with respect to the gears as well as your fingers :? ) The softer brass of the spindle drive gear usually takes the greatest beating while the steel worm tends to survive relatively unscathed. The resulting damage is characterized by sharp burrs on the back and edges at the tops of the spindle drive gear teeth. The front face of each tooth is also carved off. The precision pressure angle that once facilitated a smooth and silent transfer of energy between gears is gone.

The net effect of the damage is that the spindle drive gear can no longer smoothly engage the worm gear without making a whole lot of noise.

Remove the spindle drive gear and look closely at the teeth. Look for burrs on the sides and back or the teeth and look for the front face of the teeth to be rounded/chamfered. If you find these characteristics you should replace the gear. Some will suggest that you can carefully file off the burrs (and you can). But the noise will still be significant because what you cannot do is to reform the front of the tooth and restore the brass that was literally turned to dust.

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gramophone-georg
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Re: Noisy Victrola Motors

Post by gramophone-georg »

Get a long skinny screwdriver and put the handle up to your ear, then put the tip at different points on the motor as it's running. This will transfer noise and act as a listening probe so you can pinpoint from where in the mechanism the noise is actually emanating.

Getting this information back might help us to better pinpoint.

Also- make sure your spindle gears are installed correctly- The one on my Victor V was upside down! :shock: The gear is angle cut for the governor worm. I have also seen missing ball bearings at the bottom of the spindle. It should ride on a single ball bearing.
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hifriday
Victor Jr
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Re: Noisy Victrola Motors

Post by hifriday »

There is one tooth with a large corner missing (lower right of the photo) and also a group of teeth with some scuffing (lower left which is just above the set screw).
IMG_20190504_215404.jpg
When I first took it apart, I actually thought it was in decent condition. The governor gear on my VV-XIA looks worse than this, plus I damaged some teeth when I removed it improperly (it had a stuck platter). However besides a light scraping sound when the gear comes around, it doesn't chatter and is much quieter than this VV-VIII motor. Where can one order a replacement gear?
IMG_20190504_213918.jpg
IMG_20190504_213947.jpg
IMG_20190504_214515.jpg
I will also give the screwdriver stethoscope method a try when I have the motor back together.

JerryVan
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Re: Noisy Victrola Motors

Post by JerryVan »

You don't need a replacement gear. You just need to take a very small file and carefully file down the burrs on the nicked teeth. Be careful to only remove the burr, (raised metal), and no more!

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=riffler+file ... nb_sb_noss

There are cheap chinese ones and really high quality American made.

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