Columbia Motor Questions - Total Newbie.

[Bobbish]

Hello everyone. I am in the process of restoring an old Columbia Grafonola. I have no idea what the model is, as the previous owners did't have a clue, nor do I.

Anyway. I have fixed the cabinet/polished the cabinet, and now I have moved on to the motor.

When I got this machine, I tore it apart and realized that it is a 3 spring motor. None of the mainsprings were in the barrels which leads me to believe that someone salvaged them from this machine long ago.

So, I took the barrels out, cleaned them up, and ordered new main springs.

When the mainsprings arrived, I found myself puzzled as I have no idea which way the mainsprings need to be wound into the barrels. I have tried a few combination, and what I have right now seems to work somewhat, but I'm not getting much playtime before it stops. Only a couple of minutes. Perhaps I am not winding it enough, but if I try to wind it too much I hear a sound and lose tension on the springs as if the tensioners (spindle) have slipped out of their groves on the spring.

The current configuration for the barrels springs is as follows

transfer gears--main spring counterclockwise--main spring counterclockwise--mainspring clockwise- crank

Some additional information:
there are 2 spindles. One fits only in the barrel which attaches to the crank. The other spindle is shared between the other 2 barrels. Also this shared spindle does not look like this one (http://forum.talkingmachine.info/downlo ... &mode=view). The pictured spindle indicates that both springs are wound in opposite directions. My spindle has rivets in the same direction, thus indicating these 2 springs must be wound in the same direction.

Next issue. My tone arm is still and doesn't want to move left and right with the record tracks. How do you get this apart to sand down/lubricate?

Thanks

[tmea]

Bobbish:

I am the other newbie on the forum. Don't really understand the problem completely but then again thankfully I have not had to get into the spring portion of my motor. Mine is a 4 spring columbia but I am sure the principles/layouts are the same. The pic you included is confusing. I can't imagine how you could have springs wound in opposite directions on the same shaft. Even if you could wind it they would cancel eachother out. I'd guess the thumping you are hearing is the spring that is oriented in the wrong direction slipping off the catch on the shaft. Post more pics. I'm curious. Good luck!

Tom

[gramophoneshane]

. The pic you included is confusing. I can't imagine how you could have springs wound in opposite directions on the same shaft.
Tom

The shaft shown is from a double spring motor that has each spring in a separate barrel.
When you have a double spring motor with both springs in one barrel, then you will find two independant arbors (unless both springs are loaded in the barrel in the same direction).

[Bobbish]

The picture I posted is just one I found on this board. It is not from my motor. My motor has the center shaft which winds 2 of the springs in the same direction. It also has a second independent shaft for the 3rd spring (which is the one closest to the crank). I assume that the 2 springs which share the shaft are to be wound in the same direction, and that the 3rd spring (closest to the crank) is to be wound in the opposite direction?

The problem is determining the directions to wind the springs. I assume that I do not have the direction correct, as it does appear at least 1 spring is slipping.

[JerryVan]

It would be easy to help you if you sent a photo of your motor and spring barrels.

[hillndalefan]

I can't give you any advice about the motor, but the tone arm problem is addressed in an older line of inquiry on this site. The Graphonola I used to have had that problem, and all I did was to remove the tone arm [using the mounting screws to the board], soak it in oil, and work it back and forth until
the oil went in and loosened the joints. There is a better description somewhere on this site giving better information if that doesn't work. Good luck!

[Bobbish]

Hello Again everyone.

After several days of scouring the internet and playing around with different configurations. I have discovered that all 3 springs are wound in a CLOCKWISE direction when looking into the barrel. Ie. Clockwise from barrel edge to center.

I have also discovered how to take apart the bottom piece of the tone arm, so that I could sand the joint, and then put back together. My particular grafonola has an auto shut off feature (it doesn't work, but it's there). First unmount the tone arm and base from the case. There is one screw on the elbow of the tone arm. Take that screw out. Now flip the base over. You will notice a ring with 3 little holes in it. Take a set of needle nose plies, align it into those hole, and twist until the ring unscrews. Under this, you will find a spring, lift out the spring. Underneath this you will find part of the auto shut off feature (its a little flap of metal), take this out, and under that you will find what looks like a spacer. Take that out too. Now all you are left with is the tone arm, and the tone arm base. Now gently work the base and tone arm apart by twisting carefully back and forth. When you do get it apart, sand the tone arm, and the tone arm base. Put it all back together, and there you go!

This joint is what I will refer to as the horizontal pivot. I still have no idea on how to take apart the vertical pivot.

[alang]

Hello Again everyone.

After several days of scouring the internet and playing around with different configurations. I have discovered that all 3 springs are wound in a CLOCKWISE direction when looking into the barrel. Ie. Clockwise from barrel edge to center.

I have also discovered how to take apart the bottom piece of the tone arm, so that I could sand the joint, and then put back together. My particular grafonola has an auto shut off feature (it doesn't work, but it's there). First unmount the tone arm and base from the case. There is one screw on the elbow of the tone arm. Take that screw out. Now flip the base over. You will notice a ring with 3 little holes in it. Take a set of needle nose plies, align it into those hole, and twist until the ring unscrews. Under this, you will find a spring, lift out the spring. Underneath this you will find part of the auto shut off feature (its a little flap of metal), take this out, and under that you will find what looks like a spacer. Take that out too. Now all you are left with is the tone arm, and the tone arm base. Now gently work the base and tone arm apart by twisting carefully back and forth. When you do get it apart, sand the tone arm, and the tone arm base. Put it all back together, and there you go!

This joint is what I will refer to as the horizontal pivot. I still have no idea on how to take apart the vertical pivot.

That is great information Bobbish. Thanks for posting this. Any chance you could post a few photos of taking apart the tone arm base?
Andreas

[Bobbish]

I will try to get some photos up this weekend when I get a chance.

Right now, I am working on a new problem.

Some of you may be able to help me with this.

The crank works, mainsprings are in the correct way (finally) everything has been oiled up, but when I put the needle on the record, the weight of the tone arm slows the record down, eventually to a stop. Have any of you run across this before? Any ideas on what to do?

Thanks

[Bobbish]

Hello again everyone.

Last night I solved my problem (temporary until another problem came up).

The issue with the tone arm causing the record to slow/stop was due to incorrect/insufficient oiling off all of the gears. I took a look at my governor, and all related gears. They had oil on them, but I figured more wouldn't hurt, so I really oiled the hell out of it. I used motor oil (valvoline 5w-30). I poured this oil all over the gears, worked it into the gears, and rotated everything by hand to make sure all the gear teeth has a nice coating. I then wound the machine, and I had the same problem, the tone arm would cause the records to stop. So, I gave up for a few hours. After dinner, I came back to it. To humour my fiance, I cranked the machine one more time, and to my surprise (I almost crapped my pants with joy) the damn thing played perfectly! I played through about 6 different records, all of which sounded relatively good with my un-rebuilt reproducer. Everything was going great, all until one of the springs (the center one I believe) fell off its arbor and unwound. So, I am hoping that once I fix this spring, all will be good in the world again!

Note, there are potential drawbacks from using motor oil. Some say it will deteriorate brass. So, if you have brass gears, regular motor oil may not be the best thing for you to use. There are types of gear oil (used for manual transmissions) which are brass safe. These may work just as well.

Also note: the more the better. Really goop it on, then wipe off the excess. Remember, use lots of paper towel, and don't let it pollute your yard/sink/etc. Dispose of it safely.

Also note: Watch out for the pads. These are felt (I think) and the oil makes them slick and useless. It may be a better idea to take these off before you add the oil.

In my case, my grafonola was basically in what most would call "destroyed shape." The case was bad, the motor was useless, etc. Therefore, I had nothing to lose by trying things. If you have already spent lots of time and money on your machine, you may want to exercise a bit more caution than I did. Mine is still not working perfectly, but it working a lot better than it was. It is not capable of playing music, as opposed to just taking up space.