Issues with new diamond disc stylus.

[larryh]

This is a rather old topic. However as I have needed a stylus to test my diaphragm projects with I have despite some early problems purchased more in hopes that they would be satisfactory. My experience is proving that for me its not. I have included a few shots of what is happening to my records, some after only a few passes of the stylus. One a brand new and the other a few months old.

I feel somewhat stupid that I overlooked the issue while busying making diaphragms. Somehow I passed off the growing debris on the surface when held to a light as the new stylus getting old dirt out of the grooves. (wishful thinking it turned out). These stylus are the second set of 3 that were installed new for me to use. The first set looked ok at first and then shortly two of them began leaving lines and one tore up the surface badly.. The same thing is happening with this second set. Two I had a few months ago, one is making a nasty line in the run off and changing the surface quickly of the records. The second of that batch which I thought was still ok I watched carefully and could easily see how far it ran on my record as the grooves lost their nice black shine. The third stylus I played twice a couple days ago before I made this set of photos and although unused did the same thing.. I hardly consider that an accident or my fault. All were installed by someone of the highest respect in the hobby. At first I was willing to think somehow I was responsible for the problems but I am not up to 8 failures with new stylus in 7 years and some that happened almost right away. Including the new one yesterday..

This is something to consider when your using a new stylus. Be sure to check that your not seeing where it runs in the rear run off area and worse that its not changing the look of the records as it passes. I was shocked yesterday to realize that many of my good testing records were now visibly degraded and full of white lines. I have an original stylus here that still runs without any mark at all on the records, however the sound is compromised in places which makes it hard to know what I am doing in listening for defects of the diaphragms. I have no intention of replacing these with more as the results are damaging my records which I agree I should have caught quicker but I just couldn't bring my self to think that as new as the were what I was seeing was due to the stylus. I know its dumb.

I am wondering how others are finding a replacement to be working out for them.. One thing for sure looking under a bright lamp reveals much more than just putting the reproducer on the record in somewhat dull light, that won't show the problem nearly as fast as the light test.

The results are shown in good light below.

Larry

[52089]

I can think of 3 possible explanations, not in any order:

1) I wonder if perhaps you need to adjust the reproducer height? I'm sure you know that when lowered onto a disc, the weight pin should be about the width of a US penny from the top of the reproducer.

2) Related to the above, since you are experimenting with diaphragms, it's also possible that the length of the stylus bar/diaphragm link is off. When the height is set correctly, the weight should be essentially parallel to the record.

If either of these if not correct, the stylus may be at the wrong angle and could possibly dig into the grooves instead of riding them.

3) As you said, multiple failues with a stylus are pretty unlikely, but take a look at the stylus under a microscope to ensure that it's not chipped or misshapen and make sure that it's set at the right angle.

I have had occasional cases wher what looked like wear was in fact dirt in the grooves, so I make it a practice to clean all my Diamond Discs with alcohol when I get them. However, the photos you provided look more like actual damage than dirt. I would still clean the records to be sure.

[larryh]

I have the linkages pretty close to where they belong if not right where they belong. I looked at two of the reproducers the one really bad on and the second the unused stylus, both had the stylus level and the weight right in the ball park when lowered. Its a bit below a penny. If you look at the repair mans manual it shows the pin floating just above maybe mid way.. That to me is the most sensible point as the weight is apt to hit the bottom of the reproducer if you record is no longer perfect as many aren't very easily otherwise. A penny I noticed only left travel of about a half that distance till it clanked on the rear of the reproducer from the weight being stopped from movement. Not much play at all.

While I had my test record on the machine I ran the unused one which checked out as above pretty much and it in one pass turned the grooves a noticeable grey in the quarter inch or so It traveled. This is not new, I had this with the very first stylus I ever got new.. Some did run clean for some time and then gradually start to fail, but the time period was very short compared to 80 year old ones still traveling with out noticeable issues.

There is no question its damage.

[WDC]

Thanks, Larry for bringing up this issue. I am always concerned about record wear, even with good styli.

I recall the discourse about such problems with new styli for diamond series reproducer´s. I'd rather expect it to be a general production problem with a lack of proper dimensions, polishing or even material.

It would be interesting to examine the difference between good old and bad new ones under a microscope. Wasn't there some problem years or even few decades ago with new steel needles where the manufacturer didn't know to tumble polish them? In the result they all were way to sharp and cut into the groove.

The only new stylus I have is one installed into a Diamond B reproducer, which does cause problems. However, its weight is much lower too.

I find this issue quite concerning as I also wanted to buy a new replacement stylus for a spare reproducer. As no new discussion arose so far I thought it was only a matter of a bad charge and had been resolved by now. Any answers from your supplier or the manufacturer about this issue?

[larryh]

I am certainly no expert at the mechanics or the design standards for stylus or phonographs, I only know what I have experienced and its not been good.

When four of the first stylus I purchased a number of years back failed I was contacted by the Owner of the company that produces the stylus. He spent 45 minutes long distance defending their work and had a odd idea that even in the face of obvious evidence that no diamond would run under the pressure of the weight edison used without marking the record. When I attempted to get him to admit that the original stylus still ran over the surface an you never knew where it had traveled he refused to acknowledge it. As I recall there was some mention of an "Issue" they had had that was supposedly fixed. I know that they made the stylus to a larger size than the original in order to have it ride the edges of the groove so as not to put so much pressure on the lower part where the sound is mostly picked up.. ( that is my version of how that sounded).

At that point as was mentioned there were rumblings that all was not right with the stylus and that some problems were showing up. I gave up on them at that point and purchased old stylus with original diamonds which while they played without notice to the records surface did add a slight foggy sound due to the wear they had. When I needed to be sure of my diaphragms I reluctantly had three more installed. The rest is what you see in the photos.

The installer is trying to also determine how to proceed. I am not the first to mention this from what I gather. There seems to be two ways these stylus can be when new. They can run very cleanly but after a time one notices they are cutting the surface, or as the one I got a couple days ago they cut the surface from the get go. I had that with the very first one I ever purchased. They replaced that one for some reason though my current supplier. So far I am not hearing from many people who have experienced this same issue but I have seen the names of a few people who are concerned also at this point.

Larry

[edisonphonoworks]

I noticed wear with the new stylus too. I had purchased a brand new one a long time ago from the UK, what I recall is that the new stylus bar also had a smaller diameter bar pin. I onetime purchased a diamond C for an Amberola from Larry Donley, and it worked great, they were local work from the Union area, which he never told me who, but it was much more reasonable in price. The Phono shop is now gone from the Museum.

[WDC]

Thanks for the additional info, Larry. It's good to know, that the problems haven't disappeared. I guess we are all talking about Expert Stylus in the UK as the supplier, I don't see a reason not to name them. It is a severe problem as damages records. I gave your photos another thought and it could be also a chipped stylus tip. Now, this would still bring up the question why that is. Did you purchase these some years ago or recently? Otherwise it could be possible, that they have finally learned from that.

Shawn, that's too bad about the lost US manufacturer, I wish there was another one. As said, the new one I got with my Diamond B does also have no issues whatsoever. On the other hand, the lighter weight might be the key to that. Do you possibly have the specs for a Diamond Disc stylus tip? It might be interesting to look out for someone who could make these.

[epigramophone]

In the UK, Keith Badman has been manufacturing reproduction Edison and Columbia reproducers for over thirty years.
He also repairs and restores original reproducers and soundboxes, so it is probably safe to assume that he has a reliable source of stylii.
A search on Google will find his contact details, together with several testimonials as to the excellence of his work.

[Valecnik]

Very strange and very concerning. The pictures don't lie.

I've got three DD reproducers with replacement styli, two of which came from Expert. The third looks like it came from Expert but I'm not sure. I got the reproducer, diaphragm and stylus installed by Bob Waltrip. Picked it up on someones table. It has "Waltrip 1993" written on a piece of tape on the bottom. I use them regularly, often experimenting to compare the difference in sound between new and original diaphragms. I've played hundreds of records and never experienced anything like you are dealing with.

I've also got multiple Diamond A's and B's with reproduction styli from Expert and have not experienced any problem with those either I watch for these problems every time I play a record. There is no dust being created and never seen any lines on the records.

[larryh]

Thanks for the additional info, Larry. It's good to know, that the problems haven't disappeared. I guess we are all talking about Expert Stylus in the UK as the supplier, I don't see a reason not to name them. It is a severe problem as damages records. I gave your photos another thought and it could be also a chipped stylus tip. Now, this would still bring up the question why that is. Did you purchase these some years ago or recently? Otherwise it could be possible, that they have finally learned from that.

Shawn, that's too bad about the lost US manufacturer, I wish there was another one. As said, the new one I got with my Diamond B does also have no issues whatsoever. On the other hand, the lighter weight might be the key to that. Do you possibly have the specs for a Diamond Disc stylus tip? It might be interesting to look out for someone who could make these.

This is evidently a spotty kind of issue which pops up at times. Why I seem to have it twice , or really three times, is a mystery to me. The very first stylus I ever got about 6 years ago though the supplier ate records from the second it touched the records. It was replaced. The next three purchased about a year after that worked fine at first but over time started marking the run off and one dug in so bad it showed the brown under surface. That may well have been chipped on a record issue that was missed. I replaced them with old originals but the sound was iffy on them so I again gave the new ones a try. These I got about two months ago. At first the two I got together were alright but quickly one started really digging in. That was when I noticed the other one was leaving marks that it didn't at first. These are late stock purchased though Seven M. My edisonic head which had one of the new stylus was sounding fuzzy on my diaphragms although It never left any mark on the records,, (the only one that played a long time and didn't).. Steven said it was worn down to almost nothing. I do run them a lot in testing. He replaced it and I got it back a week or so ago and played it for the first time a couple days back when I saw that it was doing the same kind of damage to the grooves as the one that I had for about two months. So these are all newer stylus. Still another respected edison collector whom purchase one of the diaphragms offered me one at a good price that he purchased quite a while back and says that that batch had no problems and left no mark. I reluctantly ordered it as I must have positive results to know what a diaphragm I am selling is going to do for sure.. (even though at this point they all sound pretty much the same).. I am going to attempt to find a couple originals that are still playing clearly, I don't know how easy that will be?

As to the specs for the edison stylus, Steven has all those at his disposal. Some discussion is going on about an american diamond stylus company that could possibly be a alternate provider, but that is only in the thinking stages.

Larry