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 Post subject: Re: 78 Diamond Stylus Recommendation
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:14 pm 
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Victor III
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 3:46 pm
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Location: Philadelphia, PA
OrthoSean wrote:

For what it's worth, my other go-to is the Stanton 500 with the 2.5 TE, which can track at 8 or more grams if needed and plays most everything reasonably well when I'm not using the AT 3 mil (conical) for just casual stuff.

Sean


Thanks for the suggestion, Sean. I took your advice and ordered a Stanton 500 cartridge for the AT-LP120-USB turntable I just picked up. Do you have any suggestions on where can I find the "2.5 TE" and "AT 3 mil" cartridges? This is my first electric machine since the 80's and Google doesn't seem to be helping...
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 Post subject: Re: 78 Diamond Stylus Recommendation
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:08 pm 
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Victor II
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OrthoSean wrote:
I'm glad I bought most of my customs for the Stanton 500 before everyone stopped carrying them. You can still have Expert in the UK retip anything you send to your specs. When my 4.0 mil TE vanished into thin air overnight a few months ago thanks to my foolishly leaving it out where my cat could discover it and use it as a toy, I grabbed an M-44 and replacement 4.0 TE from Nauck and I'm pleased with it, EXCEPT like the other Shure styli, it won't track above about 3 grams which can be a problem with warped or off center discs. The higher output of the M-44 does add a bit more "punch" to the sound, though, I mainly use it for '25-'30 Orthophonics and HMVs to ride above the "crackle", and yes, it's very effective for that.

For what it's worth, my other go-to is the Stanton 500 with the 2.5 TE, which can track at 8 or more grams if needed and plays most everything reasonably well when I'm not using the AT 3 mil (conical) for just casual stuff. Another good and less expensive option is the Ortofon series carts, for which you can get a 2.5 mil conical 78 stylus for. It's about $60 for the stylus, mine has held up very well for 4-5 years so far.

Sean


Over the years I bought a whole range of custom styli Stanton's, re-tipped by Expert Stylus), all with their own cartridges and headshells. So I really don't want to shift to other styli in the future, because that means I have to buy new cartridges as well.

So I just bought some original Stanton lp styli (NOS, still readily available), and when one of my custom styli wears out I'm just gonna send one of those lp styli directly to Expert Stylus. I contacted them and re-tipping is about $60 for a TE stylus, and $ 46 for a TC.


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 Post subject: Re: 78 Diamond Stylus Recommendation
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:49 pm 
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Victor V
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^ That is a heck of a deal from Expert Stylus, Bart 1928. You are on to something there.

Me, I like to mix up the cartridges sometimes, for a little sonic flavor.


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 Post subject: Re: 78 Diamond Stylus Recommendation
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:55 am 
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Victor III
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F. Depero, "Grammofono", 1923.
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:19 am
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Location: Italy
bart1927 wrote:
So I just bought some original Stanton lp styli (NOS, still readily available), and when one of my custom styli wears out I'm just gonna send one of those lp styli directly to Expert Stylus. I contacted them and re-tipping is about $60 for a TE stylus, and $ 46 for a TC.

You'll be limited to 3 grams tracking weight maximum. My advise would be to resell the orginal Stanton 500 styli, and buy 78-specific styli like the ones I've linked to or similar ones, and have those retipped.


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 Post subject: Re: 78 Diamond Stylus Recommendation
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:15 am 
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Victor III
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F. Depero, "Grammofono", 1923.
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:19 am
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Talking of Expert Stylus... Since years I have in the back of my mind the idea to send to him a pair of styli to retip. But then, seen the cost, everytime I wonder if there is any hearable difference at all and I postpone the expense. Many pretend there is, but in turn many people also pretend they can hear *huge* differences by changing the AC cord of the amplifier, which is exactly as said: "pretending".

I own or have owned in the past (I don't remember exactly which pick-up had which stylus) a 2.7 and a 3 mil stylus, and there was absolutely no difference among the two. But indeed they're very close to each other.

The 78 styli for the Stanton 500 have a 3 mil diamond tip. I bought three and I had in mind to do the following:

- have one retipped to 2.5 mil for very recent 78s, and to deep-track worn-out 78s;
- keep one as it is at 3 mil for generic use;
- have one retipped to 4 mil for early 78s.

Does it make sense? Would you choose other gauges? The idea of deep-tracking worn-out 78s works to some degree or is it just pretending?


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 Post subject: Re: 78 Diamond Stylus Recommendation
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:16 am 
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Victor II
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Marco Gilardetti wrote:
bart1927 wrote:
So I just bought some original Stanton lp styli (NOS, still readily available), and when one of my custom styli wears out I'm just gonna send one of those lp styli directly to Expert Stylus. I contacted them and re-tipping is about $60 for a TE stylus, and $ 46 for a TC.

You'll be limited to 3 grams tracking weight maximum. My advise would be to resell the orginal Stanton 500 styli, and buy 78-specific styli like the ones I've linked to or similar ones, and have those retipped.


Actually, those Stanton lp styli (the 5100 AL) track up to FIVE grams, not 3.


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 Post subject: Re: 78 Diamond Stylus Recommendation
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:23 am 
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Victor III
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F. Depero, "Grammofono", 1923.
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:19 am
Posts: 730
Location: Italy
bart1927 wrote:
Actually, those Stanton lp styli (the 5100 AL) track up to FIVE grams, not 3.

Ah, good. I see Stanton is switching towards deejay products, unfortunately. I would never, for any reason, play an LP with a stylus as stiff as one that can bear 5 grams of tracking force, but it's OK if one intended to use it for 78s! ;)


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 Post subject: Re: 78 Diamond Stylus Recommendation
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:32 am 
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Victor II
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Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:07 pm
Posts: 421
Location: Netherlands
Marco Gilardetti wrote:
Talking of Expert Stylus... Since years I have in the back of my mind the idea to send to him a pair of styli to retip. But then, seen the cost, everytime I wonder if there is any hearable difference at all and I postpone the expense. Many pretend there is, but in turn many people also pretend they can hear *huge* differences by changing the AC cord of the amplifier, which is exactly as said: "pretending".

I own or have owned in the past (I don't remember exactly which pick-up had which stylus) a 2.7 and a 3 mil stylus, and there was absolutely no difference among the two. But indeed they're very close to each other.

The 78 styli for the Stanton 500 have a 3 mil diamond tip. I bought three and I had in mind to do the following:

- have one retipped to 2.5 mil for very recent 78s, and to deep-track worn-out 78s;
- keep one as it is at 3 mil for generic use;
- have one retipped to 4 mil for early 78s.

Does it make sense? Would you choose other gauges? The idea of deep-tracking worn-out 78s works to some degree or is it just pretending?


The main difference between the standard 2.7 stylus and a retipped one, is that the retipped ones (at least those from Expert Stylus) are also truncated. This can make a big difference in background noise.

I must say that the difference between 2.7 and 3.0 is rather small, but on records with somewhat wider grooves (for instance Victor's or HMV's from the 1920's) changing from a standard 2.7 mil to let's say a 3.5 TE or TC makes a huge difference.

And if you have a lot of dime store label records (Banners, Perfects, Imperials, etc) sometimes you need one that's even bigger than a 3.5, for instance a 3.7.

The usual advice is to use conical styli on (somewhat) worn records, and elliptical styli on records in E condition or higher. While I can confirm that conical styli can sound better on certain worn records (especially those with stressed grooves), because the distortion will be less pronounced, I still can't hear a difference between a TE or a TC on an E condition record.

Your list sounds good, but perhaps you could also throw a 3.5 in the mix? Ideal for Victors and HMV's.


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 Post subject: Re: 78 Diamond Stylus Recommendation
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:10 am 
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Victor V
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Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:22 pm
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A lot of information in this thread!

Thanks folks, for your expertise!

Best,
Fran
Francis; "i" for him, "e" for her
"Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while" - the unappreciative supervisor.


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 Post subject: Re: 78 Diamond Stylus Recommendation
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:20 am 
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Victor III
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F. Depero, "Grammofono", 1923.
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:19 am
Posts: 730
Location: Italy
bart1927 wrote:
Your list sounds good, but perhaps you could also throw a 3.5 in the mix? Ideal for Victors and HMV's.

Thank you very much for your notes. Retipping is so costly and the whole thing is so close to overkilling that I never decide to go ahead with these two styli to be retipped, go figure if I had to have three of them retipped!

Should you be forced to pick only one larger than 3 mil, would you buy a 3.5 or a 4? Or a way in between like perhaps a 3.7?

Can you expand your thoughts on elliptical diamonds applied to 78s? I ask beacause in my opinion (and I mean the opinion of a physicist, in this case) elliptical cuts are useless with 78 RPMs. Elliptical (and more complicated) cuts were introduced to minimize needle pinching at very high frequencies, especially with stereophonic records. There are no such things as very high frequencies in 78 RPm records, and in any case a spurious vertical movement of the needle can be disregarded as there is no vertically cut signal. All other common wording about elliptical cuts (like the pretended "increased contact surface") seem absolutely negligible - if not self defeating - to me when it comes to 78s. As a matter of fact I'm not suprised that you can hear no difference: there shouldn't be any sensible difference.


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