Another rare one: Edison Bell brown indestructible

[Herman]

Another in my collection;
Edison Bell indestructible brown ... Watermelon on a vine.

I believe these were made for Edison bell by the Lambert Co. Same construction as the lamberts and they come in pink, black, and brown.
I believe the brown is the hardest to find.

[Accursius]

Beautiful! I must admit that I have never seen a brown one before - I wonder whether this may be the "natural" color of the celluloid - it would not have made much sense imitating brown wax while around the same time, the big manufacturers changed to black. At least this is finally a brown cylinder not being endangered of growing mold.

[vansteem78]

Very nice. Nice to see too. I have never seen any Edison Bell cylinders and this one is darn special I think. I do love Edison Bell as my first machine (disc) was/is an Edison Bell. A nice little machine too. Light as a feather about the size of my HMV 145. Lighter and more style too!

[NEFaurora]

I agree with the OP. It is certainly a hard to find one..

There is certainly a Lambert connection to this cylinder...No question...

)

Tony K.

Edison Collector/Restorer

[Dulcetto]

Hi All , to set the record straight ( no pun intended ! ) as many of you seem to have inaccurate ideas when it comes to the relationship of the different colours of the Edison - Bell Indestructible records. First sold in UK in 1902 , the pink Edison Bell Indestructibles were indeed manufactured for Edison-Bell by The Lambert Company of Chicago, mostly using masters recorded in London by Edison-Bell, but there were also some records that used masters recorded by Lambert -- notably in a 9000 number series. All Edison Bell Indestructibles are announced as such . During 1903 Edison- Bell started to manufacture Indestructibles themselves in London , in April of that year and were BROWN in colour. Why Brown I may hear one or two of you say ? well that was the normal colour of most cylinder records available in the UK in 1903 -- Edison -Bell were then producing their wax "Populars " in brown, their first black MOULDED records not being produced until the late Autumn of that year. By August of 1903 , the colour of the Indestructibles had changed to Black celluloid in line with the wax cylinders then being produced by Edison Bell. So >>> Please note >>> PINK Edison Bell Indestructibles were made by Lambert ,1902 - 03 BROWN and BLACK Edison Bell Indestructibles were made by EDISON BELL in London, BROWN from April to August 1903 and BLACK from 1903 to 1906 ( the last Edison Bell Indestructibles were marketed as Edison Bell Ebony Records )! Regards Dulcetto

[OrthoSean]

Hi All , to set the record straight ( no pun intended ! ) as many of you seem to have inaccurate ideas when it comes to the relationship of the different colours of the Edison - Bell Indestructible records. First sold in UK in 1902 , the pink Edison Bell Indestructibles were indeed manufactured for Edison-Bell by The Lambert Company of Chicago, mostly using masters recorded in London by Edison-Bell, but there were also some records that used masters recorded by Lambert -- notably in a 9000 number series. All Edison Bell Indestructibles are announced as such . During 1903 Edison- Bell started to manufacture Indestructibles themselves in London , in April of that year and were BROWN in colour. Why Brown I may hear one or two of you say ? well that was the normal colour of most cylinder records available in the UK in 1903 -- Edison -Bell were then producing their wax "Populars " in brown, their first black MOULDED records not being produced until the late Autumn of that year. By August of 1903 , the colour of the Indestructibles had changed to Black celluloid in line with the wax cylinders then being produced by Edison Bell. So >>> Please note >>> PINK Edison Bell Indestructibles were made by Lambert ,1902 - 03 BROWN and BLACK Edison Bell Indestructibles were made by EDISON BELL in London, BROWN from April to August 1903 and BLACK from 1903 to 1906 ( the last Edison Bell Indestructibles were marketed as Edison Bell Ebony Records )! Regards Dulcetto

Thank you for that information.

I bought a large collection of Lamberts several years ago and among them are a handful of band selections announced as being by the London Regimental Band (or something close to that, it's been awhile since I've played any of them!). Most of them are announced "Lambert Record", but at least one is announced "Edison Bell Record". They're all in Lambert boxes and most of them are black, yet they ALL carry Lambert catalog numbers. Curious. There's probably information readily available about these, but I haven't really been interested enough to dig further. My basic assumption has always been that masters were shared by both companies, am I correct?

Sean

[Dulcetto]

Hi Sean , Yes , the masters seem to have been shared to some degree , as Edison - Bell's London band recordings ( London Regimental Band , London Concert Orchestra ) were used by Lambert for their US domestic catalogue. Interestingly , when the Lambert company set up their British branch in 1904 , their first records issued were all from masters recorded for them by Edison - Bell , and the artists credits on the Lambert records were indeed the same as the regular Edison - Bell credits where that artiste had also made Edison - Bell records . All interesting stuff ! Regards Dulcetto

[Menophanes]

I am reopening this thread because I have just bought an Edison-Bell pink 'Indestructible' cylinder in the original box. Although we have discussed this topic more recently (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=44708&hilit=Lambert+pink+cylinder) I feel that the details are better placed here, since they supplement (and to some extent modify) the valuable information given above by Dulcetto and others.

As I say, my record is pink – very pink – and has neither plaster core nor internal reinforcement. It bears the March 1900 patent date along with the catalogue number and title (9037 Back to Dixie Quartette), these latter details being stamped in ink rather than embossed or indented. (Were the Indestructibles the first cylinders to be marked with their titles?) There is no doubt that the box (identical to Herman's as illustrated above) is original, since the lid bears the catalogue number in an obviously contemporary hand. The singers call themselves the Mozart Quartette (the same group appears in the YouTube video cited in the April 2020 posting mentioned above), and their voices are obviously British. The record seems to play best at about 152–155 r.p.m.; 140 or 144 would certainly be too slow, but my ears tell me that 160 would be too fast. I have consistently found the same to be true of Edison-Bell black-wax cylinders of the 'Popular' and 'EB' series.

I have made what I think is an adequate digitisation and shall post this and some images during the next few days. The record has the quietest surface of any pre-1912 recording, cylinder or disc, that I have ever heard.

Oliver Mundy.

[Menophanes]

The new Edison-Bell pink Indestructible cylinder can now be heard on http://www.horologia.me.uk/cylinders.html (scroll to the bottom of the page). I used an Edison Standard B, as shown, with a Model R reproducer (fitted of course with a two-minute stylus) and a 75cm brass horn. I have not applied any noise-reduction to the digitisation.

When I first tried this record on the phonograph it had shrunk so much that it projected about 20mm beyond the end of the mandrel, so that I could not shut the end-gate. I must confess that despite Norman Bruderhofer's warning (https://www.cylinder.de/guide_lambert-cylinders.html) I used a Blue-Amberol-type reamer to widen the bore, feeling that I could not hope to keep the cross-section truly circular if I tried to enlarge it by hand with sandpaper. I made a point of stopping and relaxing the pressure whenever I felt the least tendency for the cylinder to catch on the abrasive pads. Perhaps I was luckier than I deserved; at any rate, the result was totally successful. I was pleasantly surprised to find that all the shrinkage seemed to have occurred across the diameter of the cylinder, leaving its length (and therefore the pitch of the grooves) unimpaired; during transcription it jumped a groove only once (a fault I was able to edit out), just as any normal black-wax cylinder might do. By contrast, a later black Indestructible which I once had could not play for twenty seconds without skipping.

A few pictures follow.

Oliver Mundy.

[RefSeries]

I hope I can add to the Lambert/Edison Bell saga. While I have not seen any documentation it is clear that a deal was struck between Lambert and Edison Bell (EB) following a visit by Brian Philpot and William Messer of Lambert to EB in London on 2nd July 1902. William Messer was the designer of the method of using thinner celluloid forming the basis for the 29th July 1902 patent, this date appearing on all Lamberts after about December 1902 and indeed on all cylinders made by the Indestructible Phonograph Record Co (including their time under Columbia control). It appears the agreement was that EB would supply masters to Lambert in Chicago to produce pink cylinders to be shipped back to the UK and boxed by Austin & Co for sale by EB in the UK. EB masters had a master date on them, a practice progressively adopted by Lambert as well.

Other parts of the deal included the EB supply of some masters for Lambert to be produced as pink records for sale as Lamberts in the US, carrying the latter's catalogue numbers. These masters included some concert sized cylinders (eg London Regimental Band, London Concert Orchestra). As is mentioned sometimes the introduction change from EB to Lambert was missed, and some records carrying Lambert catalogue numbers still announce as EB, including the concert range where at least 5007 still having an EB intro.

Another part of the deal was that some Lambert masters were sold by EB as well, including pink indestructibles boxed as EB in the 9000-9041 range, and two ranges produced as EB wax (9050-9062 by the Mozart Quartet and 9080-9088 by Harry Macdonough). It is my belief that the Mozart Quartet is the same as the American Quartet, as I have cylinders of the same song in both Lambert and EB guise which sound the same.

Messer stayed in the UK, his role being to set up equipment such that EB could produce their own indestructible cylinders. This was completed by early 1903, and EB marketed the brown celluloid cylinders from the April. The first browns looked very similar to contemporary Lamberts, including the pencilled catalogue number inside, but this changed progressively and embossed numbers and other data appeared and the pencil script was dropped. In June 1903 EB changed their product to black celluloid, with embossed titles and number, and embossed manufacturer info on the open end. I have a brown celluloid 'slug', this being an unrecorded plastic blank which has never been through the impression process, a picture of which I can post if people are interested.

Messer then worked to build and install equipment in the EB factory for the UK Lambert company, the first records coming off the line in December 1904. These were of a different style, using a celluloid sleeve over a fibre core, the title ring being embossed. Initially EB masters were used, but soon Lambert recorded their own titles and the cylinder equipment was moved to a new Lambert factory mid 1905. However the writing was on the wall and Lambert failed on both sides of the Atlantic in November 1905.

This was not the end of the story, however, as Messer was hired by Indestructible to set up a plant in Albany, this producing records from late 1907. Indestructible had acquired Brian Philpot and other ex-Lambert people, together with the British patents. I do not know if they also picked up the cylinder moulding equipment, but the early Indestructible celluloids are identical to UK Lamberts (ie raised title ring lettering) and the design of that part of the production looks very similar.

Apologies for waffling on but Lambert is a bit of a passion. Their patents, designs and people seem to run through the bulk of the evolution of the indestructible cylinder, up to and including the mighty Blue Amberol!