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 Post subject: Newbie With Purchase Questions
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:16 am 
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Victor Jr
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Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:12 am
Posts: 1
In the process of purchasing my first player. Getting a Victor III with external horn. My question is other than Discogs, is there a decent place to purchase 78 records which will play on this machine? I am looking currently for

Scott Joplin - The Entertainer
Scott Joplin - Maple Leaf Rag


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 Post subject: Re: Newbie With Purchase Questions
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:48 am 
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Victor I
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:57 pm
Posts: 113
I would guess any disc record of Maple leaf Rag during Joplin's lifetime would be really hard to find, I'm not sure one by Joplin himself exists - but I didn't check


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 Post subject: Re: Newbie With Purchase Questions
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:10 pm 
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Victor IV
I've got both kinds of music--classical & rag-time.
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:39 am
Posts: 1308
Location: South Carolina
Congratulations on finding a Victor III. Those are such nice phonographs--nice big horn, good motor, and an Exhibition soundbox that, if rebuilt properly, can sound very good. I have one salted away in the collection--it's probably my favorite machine to casually play records on. Just go by and throw on a disc. It's so simple to use and the parts have a heavy, satisfying feel to them...

The guy you need to talk to is on the forum here. His name is Mr. Don Wilson and he goes by donniej. The records will not be original copies but they will be new ones.

You see, Scott Joplin recorded a few tracks in 1916 before his death the next year. Unfortunately for phonograph collectors, he did that work on a player piano instead of a phonograph record. The piano rolls were the "reproducing" type, and through a very complicated arrangement in the machinery, they were able to reproduce almost every nuance of the original performance.

As Joplin was ill from the syphilis that was to end his life he was not able to play at his peak, but through a process known as "Connorizing," an early form of digital re-mastering, the workers in 1916 were able to adjust his recorded piano rolls to get the true Joplin sound back.

Don Wilson runs Wilson Laboratories, and they re-make vintage formats for the talking machine. He has a catalog of records going back into the 1890s and is very good at molding them in modern resins hard enough to play on your Victor with a steel needle. (Please change it after each side, of course.) He also has record cutting equipment, and has re-released Joplin's "Maple Leaf" and "Entertainer" rags in 78rpm disc format.

Unlike the old horn processed acoustic records of yesteryear, his were done with microphones and good amplifiers, and sound wonderful. The price is worth it. And since he recorded directly from a player piano, it is as good as having Joplin back from the grave to play for the phonograph one more time. Not bad talent scouting considering Joplin has been dead since 1917.

So to play Scott Joplin, that is what you need to do. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Newbie With Purchase Questions
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:34 pm 
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Victor V
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:54 pm
Posts: 2739
Maple Leaf Rag is available in a band arrangement on Victor. (Also a banjo arrangement on Indestructible cylinder.)

AFAIK, neither Maple Leaf Rag nor The Entertainer was recorded as a piano solo during the early period of 78s.


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 Post subject: Re: Newbie With Purchase Questions
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:59 pm 
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Victor VI
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Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:17 am
Posts: 3214
Location: Where there's "hamburger ALL OVER the highway"...
52089 wrote:
Maple Leaf Rag is available in a band arrangement on Victor. (Also a banjo arrangement on Indestructible cylinder.)

AFAIK, neither Maple Leaf Rag nor The Entertainer was recorded as a piano solo during the early period of 78s.


There's also Ossman's banjo version of MLR on Columbia disc (I have it on United).

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Newbie With Purchase Questions
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:06 pm 
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Victor IV
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Those who were seen dancing were thought insane by those who could not hear the music. Nietzsche
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:55 am
Posts: 1540
Location: Tucson, AZ
Ha! You beat me to it, Bill. :ugeek:

Attachment:
DSCN0192.JPG
DSCN0192.JPG [ 219.38 KiB | Viewed 262 times ]

Take a look here, too...
https://adp.library.ucsb.edu/index.php/ ... yt0=Search
and...
https://adp.library.ucsb.edu/index.php/ ... t_composer

James.


Last edited by Roaring20s on Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Newbie With Purchase Questions
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:12 pm 
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Victor VI
User avatar
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:17 am
Posts: 3214
Location: Where there's "hamburger ALL OVER the highway"...
VanEpsFan1914 wrote:
Congratulations on finding a Victor III. Those are such nice phonographs--nice big horn, good motor, and an Exhibition soundbox that, if rebuilt properly, can sound very good. I have one salted away in the collection--it's probably my favorite machine to casually play records on. Just go by and throw on a disc. It's so simple to use and the parts have a heavy, satisfying feel to them...

The guy you need to talk to is on the forum here. His name is Mr. Don Wilson and he goes by donniej. The records will not be original copies but they will be new ones.

You see, Scott Joplin recorded a few tracks in 1916 before his death the next year. Unfortunately for phonograph collectors, he did that work on a player piano instead of a phonograph record. The piano rolls were the "reproducing" type, and through a very complicated arrangement in the machinery, they were able to reproduce almost every nuance of the original performance.

As Joplin was ill from the syphilis that was to end his life he was not able to play at his peak, but through a process known as "Connorizing," an early form of digital re-mastering, the workers in 1916 were able to adjust his recorded piano rolls to get the true Joplin sound back.

Don Wilson runs Wilson Laboratories, and they re-make vintage formats for the talking machine. He has a catalog of records going back into the 1890s and is very good at molding them in modern resins hard enough to play on your Victor with a steel needle. (Please change it after each side, of course.) He also has record cutting equipment, and has re-released Joplin's "Maple Leaf" and "Entertainer" rags in 78rpm disc format.

Unlike the old horn processed acoustic records of yesteryear, his were done with microphones and good amplifiers, and sound wonderful. The price is worth it. And since he recorded directly from a player piano, it is as good as having Joplin back from the grave to play for the phonograph one more time. Not bad talent scouting considering Joplin has been dead since 1917.

So to play Scott Joplin, that is what you need to do. :)


I believe there are several versions of Maple Leaf on piano roll. One is painful to hear, as it documents Joplin's deteriorating condition; another (perhaps earlier?) session is much better, demonstrating some of the ornamentation he used in performance.

The third roll, issued by QRS, was a recut version of the second, altered to sound more "jazzy"; I believe that's the version that Don used on his pressing.

As for the rolls, they were not exactly "reproducing piano" rolls: they were called "hand-played" rolls, and recorded on an instrument that simply marked the fingering, without the finer nuances of Ampico or Duo-Art instruments.

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Newbie With Purchase Questions
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:32 am 
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Victor O
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Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:59 pm
Posts: 87
Location: Syracuse N.Y.
I see a common problem here. I speak to newbies who are interested in the technology but because of the age of the recordings which these machines originally played, newbies have had little exposure to it. The older songs and melodies are no longer heard on the radio. The era of music of these machines are alien to the modern ear.

Scott Joplin's music made a resurgence after the release of the film "The Sting". Curious Joplin's music evoked an era much earlier than the events in the film. The Sting is nearing 50 years since its release.

Nevertheless, as much as I like "The Entertainer" and "The Maple Leaf Rag", there is a huge trove of forgotten music which was more popular in its day, hence is more easily available.


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 Post subject: Re: Newbie With Purchase Questions
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:53 am 
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Victor V
His epigrams are all his own, the man's an epigramophone!
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:21 pm
Posts: 2807
Location: The Somerset Levels, UK.
Jelly Roll Morton recorded Joplin's "Original Rags", and possibly others, in 1939. These should not be too hard to find.


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