Horn gramophones to identify and discuss

Discussions on Talking Machines of British or European Manufacture
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jamiegramo
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Re: Horn gramophones to identify and discuss

Post by jamiegramo »

jamiegramo wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:34 pm
jamiegramo wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:32 pm
epigramophone wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:29 pm Regarding the wood, most of the case is mahogany but the dark grain on the motor board looks like rosewood.
That is most unusual to find on a gramophone. I wonder whether the motor board has been re-veneered.
Our emails on the rosewood posted at exactly the same time!

You make a good point! Nostalgia needs to check the underside of the motor board to see if the rosewood veneer is covering redundant holes.

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Re: Horn gramophones to identify and discuss

Post by nostalgia »

Thanks for posting the picture of this Thorens machine, Roger. It really looks pretty similar to my machine in many ways
Jamie... :lol: I just had to present something a bit better than the "Zonofrankenphone", right? I actually was close to dismiss the machine yesterday evening because of the very bad initial photo received, but an inner voice told me to have a look at it, and I am happy I did, of course.
Rosewood, thanks for telling that. I will for sure take some photos of the underside of the motorboard after removing the motor in the next few days.

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Re: Horn gramophones to identify and discuss

Post by Curt A »

I'm thinking that you could probably double your money, if you would just go ahead and list it here... :roll: :mrgreen: ;)
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Re: Horn gramophones to identify and discuss

Post by gramophoneshane »

I think the back bracket on this machine is a Thorens.
It's the same bracket that's reproduced in aluminium for most Indian crapophones.
Yours however appears to be a genuine original.
It's also worth noting that not all Swiss and German machines followed the "needle lines up with the spindle" rule like most HMV/Victor machines did, so if your needle falls short of the spindle by ½"-1', it may well be how it was originally sold.

Is there any chance you could post a picture of the back of the cabinet with the back bracket removed?
Perhaps seeing all the holes and any witness marks in the timber or finish may give a clue to what different back bracket was originally used, or if this one has simply been moved for some reason?

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Re: Horn gramophones to identify and discuss

Post by nostalgia »

Thank you for suggestions, Shane. I will remove the back bracket, and take some photos for witness marks.
I checked the tonearm length before buying the gramophone, but I will also take some more photos of the backet, when it is attached to the machine,
so we can see the distance between the needle and the spindle.
I am always keen on trying to solve mysteries too :geek:

Curt, doubling the money..that is tempting,,,or maybe not :mrgreen:

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Re: Horn gramophones to identify and discuss

Post by nostalgia »

I have taken some additional photos of this cabinet, so now you can voice your opinions, if you want. :geek:
In my world this is a back bracket belonging to a small horn gramophone, and we can also see the distance between the spindle and the soundbox.
There is the typical extra hole drilled on the back side to fit the new bracket.
And..regarding the wood...I leave it to your opinions, since I am absolutely no expert on this, to me however..it does not look like the top has been re veneered.
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jamiegramo
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Re: Horn gramophones to identify and discuss

Post by jamiegramo »

The underside of the motor board is looking good! It looks original and there are no redundant holes being covered by the rosewood veneer on top. I think there’s no reason to assume that this veneer hasn’t been there since new. I think to add detail to a good machine and its colour appears to match the mahogany well.

Perhaps you could use the back bracket to trade for one of a more suitable size?

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Re: Horn gramophones to identify and discuss

Post by nostalgia »

Thanks for the input, Jamie. Trading gramophone parts is unfortunately difficult in my area, since collectors are hard to find here, but I have become friends with one big collector, and will show him the cabinet in a week or two. Or I will maybe need start looking for a small Thorens cabinet with an oversized back bracket, that will leave me with two complete gramophones after swapping the brackets on the two Thorens machines :lol:
Actually, there are big size horn gramophones for sale up here that are sold at good prices, but if they are Thorens or not are of course harder to decide...but going after a big size Swiss/German back bracket would maybe be sufficient.

I don't really know if Thorens/Paillard etc made their own back brackets or not, of if they came from a supplier of metal parts who sold to different gramophone manufacturers?

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Re: Horn gramophones to identify and discuss

Post by epigramophone »

Thorens and Paillard (family owned companies which were connected by marriage) both sold components to the gramophone trade, as did Beka, so it is likely that they were indeed manufacturers.

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Re: Horn gramophones to identify and discuss

Post by Inigo »

They sold all types of hardware, you could assembly a complete gramophone, adding only the woodwork. Watch their catalogues of parts at https://www.graphonogram.com/4-documentation.html
That's why many off-brand machines in Europe carried Thorens hardware...
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