Monarch Gramophone Speed Control

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jamiegramo
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Monarch Gramophone Speed Control

Post by jamiegramo »

The pictures are taken from a recent eBay auction for a Monarch Gramophone base that some of you will have noticed. U.S. collectors will recognise the classic Victor Special styling. The question is regarding the unusual shield shaped speed control that looks like it’s always been present on a mostly untouched machine. Has anyone seen another like this on a G&T or Victor machine? Maybe i’m being an anorak (yes I’m still wearing it in my profile shot) but this is a detail that interested me.

My other question concerns the horn. The gramophone was first listed with just the base shown but the travelling arm and concert soundbox (missing stylus bar) were added to the auction when later found and the lot sold for £560. The nice original G&T brass horn was sold on a separate listing that finished at the same time but this only fetched £24. This seems very cheap to me. Am I out of touch with horn prices?

Thanks, Jamie
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Steve
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Re: Monarch Gramophone Speed Control

Post by Steve »

No, you're not out of touch. The horn was a steal probably because most collectors don't know what they're looking at when they see a random horn online. Most assume it must be repro.

Congratulations there. You did extremely well. Maybe I'll start buying again as there are clearly some bargains about.

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poodling around
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Re: Monarch Gramophone Speed Control

Post by poodling around »

jamiegramo wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 7:49 am The pictures are taken from a recent eBay auction for a Monarch Gramophone base that some of you will have noticed. U.S. collectors will recognise the classic Victor Special styling. The question is regarding the unusual shield shaped speed control that looks like it’s always been present on a mostly untouched machine. Has anyone seen another like this on a G&T or Victor machine? Maybe i’m being an anorak (yes I’m still wearing it in my profile shot) but this is a detail that interested me.

My other question concerns the horn. The gramophone was first listed with just the base shown but the travelling arm and concert soundbox (missing stylus bar) were added to the auction when later found and the lot sold for £560. The nice original G&T brass horn was sold on a separate listing that finished at the same time but this only fetched £24. This seems very cheap to me. Am I out of touch with horn prices?

Thanks, Jamie
How can you tell that this was an original horn I wonder ? The reason I ask is that I have a mystery horn which seems to be constructed the same or similar way.

Photo of ebay horn below.
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jamiegramo
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Re: Monarch Gramophone Speed Control

Post by jamiegramo »

Steve wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 7:57 am No, you're not out of touch. The horn was a steal probably because most collectors don't know what they're looking at when they see a random horn online. Most assume it must be repro.

Congratulations there. You did extremely well. Maybe I'll start buying again as there are clearly some bargains about.
Thank you Steve. I’m impressed because I didn’t actually say I’d bought the horn. So now I’m wondering if you’re psychic.

Oedipus
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Re: Monarch Gramophone Speed Control

Post by Oedipus »

I'm not clear whether this Monarch was a Victor or a G & T -- it could be either. But that shield-shaped escutcheon is typical of Paillard motors (probably of a later date), and is unlikely to be original. You see it on Decca portables in the 1920s.

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jamiegramo
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Re: Monarch Gramophone Speed Control

Post by jamiegramo »

Oedipus wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:31 am I'm not clear whether this Monarch was a Victor or a G & T -- it could be either. But that shield-shaped escutcheon is typical of Paillard motors (probably of a later date), and is unlikely to be original. You see it on Decca portables in the 1920s.
Thank you I didn’t see that it was likely to be correct but apparently a replacement done some time ago. The machine had a Belfast dealers plaque and a single spring motor so would be a G&T style No. 11.

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jamiegramo
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Re: Monarch Gramophone Speed Control

Post by jamiegramo »

poodling around wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:48 am How can you tell that this was an original horn I wonder ? The reason I ask is that I have a mystery horn which seems to be constructed the same or similar way.

Photo of ebay horn below.
The photo you took from the listing is interesting as it actually shows traces of the original lacquer.

I have a similar machine. This was an attic find with the original horn which appears identical to the eBay horn and I’ve handled quite a few G&T horns. The joint is correct and these early front mount G&T horns often have quite a deep but narrow flare. Meaning the flare does not spread out to such a wide diameter compared to other horns like the cylinder phonograph horns which can have the end cut off to fit front mount machines. Very wide flares where the flare section has a short body are often an indication of reproductions. Particularly the reproduction trademark gramophone horns and cylinder phonograph horns of the 1970s. The point at which the body joins the flare can be quite narrow and not as broad as an original. In other words a narrow horn with a short and wide flare.

Anyway the gramophone base and horn were both being sold from St. Neots at the same time. Identical listing format. Admittedly different usernames, perhaps husband and wife but almost certainly connected.

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poodling around
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Re: Monarch Gramophone Speed Control

Post by poodling around »

jamiegramo wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:00 pm
poodling around wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:48 am How can you tell that this was an original horn I wonder ? The reason I ask is that I have a mystery horn which seems to be constructed the same or similar way.

Photo of ebay horn below.
The photo you took from the listing is interesting as it actually shows traces of the original lacquer.

I have a similar machine. This was an attic find with the original horn which appears identical to the eBay horn and I’ve handled quite a few G&T horns. The joint is correct and these early front mount G&T horns often have quite a deep but narrow flare. Meaning the flare does not spread out to such a wide diameter compared to other horns like the cylinder phonograph horns which can have the end cut off to fit front mount machines. Very wide flares where the flare section has a short body are often an indication of reproductions. Particularly the reproduction trademark gramophone horns and cylinder phonograph horns of the 1970s. The point at which the body joins the flare can be quite narrow and not as broad as an original. In other words a narrow horn with a short and wide flare.

Anyway the gramophone base and horn were both being sold from St. Neots at the same time. Identical listing format. Admittedly different usernames, perhaps husband and wife but almost certainly connected.
Very interesting indeed - great gramophone as well !

Adamp1gramophone
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Re: Monarch Gramophone Speed Control

Post by Adamp1gramophone »

jamiegramo wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:00 pm
poodling around wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:48 am How can you tell that this was an original horn I wonder ? The reason I ask is that I have a mystery horn which seems to be constructed the same or similar way.

Photo of ebay horn below.
The photo you took from the listing is interesting as it actually shows traces of the original lacquer.

I have a similar machine. This was an attic find with the original horn which appears identical to the eBay horn and I’ve handled quite a few G&T horns. The joint is correct and these early front mount G&T horns often have quite a deep but narrow flare. Meaning the flare does not spread out to such a wide diameter compared to other horns like the cylinder phonograph horns which can have the end cut off to fit front mount machines. Very wide flares where the flare section has a short body are often an indication of reproductions. Particularly the reproduction trademark gramophone horns and cylinder phonograph horns of the 1970s. The point at which the body joins the flare can be quite narrow and not as broad as an original. In other words a narrow horn with a short and wide flare.

Anyway the gramophone base and horn were both being sold from St. Neots at the same time. Identical listing format. Admittedly different usernames, perhaps husband and wife but almost certainly connected.
Hello Jamie! Did you actually buy the horn? I won the gramophone... I would LOVE to buy the horn from you (or an alternative if you have a 22" brass witch's hat). I am also searching for a winding handle. The repro in the picture is just what I had laying around (and isn't the correct one).

I have added some pictures.
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