Sound Comparison: Expert Senior or HMV 193

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emgcr
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Re: Sound Comparison: Expert Senior or HMV 193

Post by emgcr »

Lencoplayer78rpm wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:26 am I would be interested in any further comment about whether it is worth pursuing an EMG and what model. Many thanks in advance. Richard
Richard, I am biased in the extreme but, looking back on this thread, I would have to agree with Steve and Frankia that, on a desert island, there would be only one gramophone to have which would be an EMG Xb. If bass response is important to you then the Oversize---final bell diameter 33 1/2inches---is definitely the one to go for reaching down to about 80 Hz. If you are seriously interested I can help you to what you want.

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Re: Sound Comparison: Expert Senior or HMV 193

Post by chunnybh »

I'm for the Expert Senior, it's the one that I play the most. Some of us with the luxury of have several gramophones know that different records sound better on certain machines played with certain soundboxes.
If you are going for just one large open horn machine, I would suggest you take into account the acoustics of your listening room. HMV's sound wonderful in a low celling room, I suppose because they are so much closer to the ground. A carpet, wooden floor or tiles will completely change the sound too.
You really need a large room to get the best out of the larger gramophones. It can also take a lot of trial and error to find the right spot in the room for each gramophone. Eg. placing my 202 where the Senior is, just does not work. For me, the easiest ones to setup are the Expert Junior or the Xa, they tend to sound great wherever they are.

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Re: Sound Comparison: Expert Senior or HMV 193

Post by Steve »

chunnybh wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:14 pm I'm for the Expert Senior, it's the one that I play the most. Some of us with the luxury of have several gramophones know that different records sound better on certain machines played with certain soundboxes.
If you are going for just one large open horn machine, I would suggest you take into account the acoustics of your listening room. HMV's sound wonderful in a low celling room, I suppose because they are so much closer to the ground. A carpet, wooden floor or tiles will completely change the sound too.
You really need a large room to get the best out of the larger gramophones. It can also take a lot of trial and error to find the right spot in the room for each gramophone. Eg. placing my 202 where the Senior is, just does not work. For me, the easiest ones to setup are the Expert Junior or the Xa, they tend to sound great wherever they are.
Hi Chunny, it looks like we're in broad agreement about the hierarchy of these wonderful machines. However, I'm very interested in your comment regarding swapping the position of the Expert Senior and the 202. I'm in the process of moving home and I'm debating where to put both my 202 and Expert. What specifically makes you say "placing my 202 where the Senior is just does not work"?

It's likely that both of my machines will be positioned in rooms approximately 8'6" in height with laminate flooring over concrete. In both instances the machines will be placed across a corner of two solid brick walls, at an angle of 45 degrees so the horns are facing the listener when seated. Any recommendations or suggestions would be gratefully received.

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Re: Sound Comparison: Expert Senior or HMV 193

Post by chunnybh »

Hi Steve,
Positioning is a very subjective subject and each room will create its own set of obstacles. It’s all based on trial and error.
A few points (in my personal opinion):
  • Bass response comes from all around the horn so placing it too close to a wall will cause problems by knocking the bass response out of phase. In effect sometimes cancelling the bass. In speakers it is referred to as “Speaker Boundary Interference Response”. I would suggest at least 4ft away from any wall
  • Corners are terrible places, especially if setup symmetrically. Pleasing to the eye but often terrible for sound
  • Carpets and curtains are great. My setup with the curtains open is acoustically a completely different room
My suggestion is, find where you will be sitting. Then place the gramophone in the middle of the room facing you. Then start moving it back until you hit the sweet spot. I of course had to move my sitting spot several times. My Expert literally sits in the middle of the room. The wife loves me!
The 202 did not sound so good here as its horn is so much lower to the ground. It’s now in the middle of the longest wall but still only sounds great when I pull it out 4ft away from the wall (when the wife is out).
One of the best sounding gramophones I have heard is the Xb at Ian Maxted’s. I do believe it is because, it is in the middle of the room and surrounded by soft walls. I am sure it would sound even better in a larger room.
It’s all a great experiment but always a compromise.

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Re: Sound Comparison: Expert Senior or HMV 193

Post by Marco Gilardetti »

chunnybh wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 8:18 am
  • Bass response comes from all around the horn so placing it too close to a wall will cause problems by knocking the bass response out of phase. In effect sometimes cancelling the bass. In speakers it is referred to as “Speaker Boundary Interference Response”. I would suggest at least 4ft away from any wall
  • Corners are terrible places, especially if setup symmetrically. Pleasing to the eye but often terrible for sound
Chunny, I don't want to contrive what you report hearing in your house, but the above is nonsense from a physics' standpoint. When a horn is placed in a corner, its low frequency spectrum is *greatly* improved due to the less steradians of the solid angle over which the sound is emitted.

Since in your third point you warmly recommend curtains and carpets, all I can think of is that your listening room is too empty and too reflective, and that you're experiencing frequency cancellation due to distructive interference of soundwaves bouncing all over.

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Re: Sound Comparison: Expert Senior or HMV 193

Post by CarlosV »

Marco Gilardetti wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 2:58 am Chunny, I don't want to contrive what you report hearing in your house, but the above is nonsense from a physics' standpoint. When a horn is placed in a corner, its low frequency spectrum is *greatly* improved due to the less steradians of the solid angle over which the sound is emitted.

Since in your third point you warmly recommend curtains and carpets, all I can think of is that your listening room is too empty and too reflective, and that you're experiencing frequency cancellation due to distructive interference of soundwaves bouncing all over.
My experience agrees with Marco. Only in the case of modern loudspeakers with emitters in their rear it is recommended to place at a distance from walls. In the case of horns the corner walls actually help in the propagation of the lower frequencies. I remember a post from Inigo reporting how the sound of a portable improved by placing it in a corner. The most important contributor however is - as Marco points out - how reflective are the surfaces of the room: glass windows and tile floors can easily make the best system sound horrible.

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Re: Sound Comparison: Expert Senior or HMV 193

Post by Orchorsol »

My experience is mixed!

My EMGCR Xb Oversize is in a corner and sounds wonderful with great bass. Also I suggest this accords with the late Douglas Fitzpatrick's findings, evidently - his gargantuan Expert-based, Percy Wilson designed gramophone which he modified and improved multiple times was fairly tight in a corner.

My Expert Junior is in a corner (with a particularly low ceiling) and not happy there sonically, lacking some bass; but sadly I've found it very difficult to place it anywhere else, so far. Maybe this will inspire me to change things around and experiment!

My general finding is: too much carpeting, soft furnishing etc is not a good thing. Up to a point, the less the better, but a fair amount is tolerable. The room with the Oversize is carpeted and has two soft sofas, but stark walls (with large mirrors on two sides) and lightweight curtains.
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Re: Sound Comparison: Expert Senior or HMV 193

Post by chunnybh »

Oh! very good. A discussion on acoustics in a room. Always a contentious subject. I’m always open to change and experimenting.

Marco. Not long ago, I would have totally agreed with you regarding the acoustic of corners. My previous thinking was. Placing a horn gramophone in a corner will extend its acoustic reach. That is the walls would extend the horn into the room. This is of course true. The volume increases and the horn becomes a part of the room. All good for small horned gramophones and for mid and high frequencies.
In my earlier remarks, I was specifically referring to the EMG and Expert gramophones where the mid and highs sound ok no matter where the gramophone is placed in a room.
Putting one of these huge horns in a corner automatically will increase the volume of its mid and high frequencies. In fact, with my Senior in a corner, the horns outer lip is automatically 4ft away from the corner walls. My original point was that the bass frequencies from this position are wanting.

For me, moving the gramophone, a foot away from the wall further killed its bass frequencies. If I put acoustic panels behind the horn the bass is much improved. But moving the whole machine 4ft away from the corner, the bell is now more than 6ft from the walls, I get less mid and high frequency volume but a more solid improved bass. In fact a more solid balanced sound.
When a horn is placed in a corner, its low frequency spectrum is *greatly* improved due to the less steradians of the solid angle over which the sound is emitted.
Only if the corner is acoustically dead and does not reflect. Usually by putting acoustic panels on the corner.

I have a very young friend who works in a recording studio. His ears and mind are a lot sharper than mine. The Senior blew him away and after a few days playing with it and moving it around the room. This was the position we came up with. Yes, there are variables but here are a few points he made.
  • Being a recording engineer he needs to make sure what the musicians play, is exactly what he hears in the studio speakers so he can mix it for the final recording medium.
  • You don’t want to hear the room. Just the pure music. Impossible in a real setting of anyone’s living room.
  • Corners of a room are terrible for sound. All those waves bouncing and reflecting about. He said, never put any energy source in a corner and use acoustic panels on all of the corners.
  • His setup is for the exact space where he sits and works. A precise place for listening. Again a no-no for most living room spaces.
  • A horn gramophone in a corner will sound similar throughout the room and with acoustic panel behind it may well be the best place to place it.
And, yes my living room has huge glass doors on two sides with brick walls for the other two. Without curtains it’s a scary acoustic mess. With them closed it’s quite a cosy warm sounding place. Each room is going to have its own peculiarities and its own challenges. All I am suggesting is, try moving things around.

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