Sound Comparison: Expert Senior or HMV 193

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Garret
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Sound Comparison: Expert Senior or HMV 193

Post by Garret »

Hello, all!

I am still considering investing in an Expert Senior gramophone that has become available. However, I have also been searching for an HMV 193/194. I've heard an HMV 194 in person, and it sounded glorious. I've also heard an EMG Mk IX in person, but not an Expert Senior. I'd like to eventually purchase an Expert Senior or HMV 193/194, but can't afford both.

In your mind, which sounds better: an Expert Senior or an HMV 193/194? Does one have more bass than the other? I realize I am asking you to compare apples and oranges in a judgment call, but your thoughts would be appreciated.

-Garret

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Steve
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Re: Sound Comparison: Expert Senior or HMV 193

Post by Steve »

Garret,

I have owned the following HMV's: 157, 163, 194 and a 202. I have also owned an EMG Mark 8, Mark 9, Wilson Horn conversion, Mark 10A and two Expert Seniors. I have kept just the HMV 202 and the best Expert Senior. The Expert Senior is much better than even the 202. On sound reproduction terms alone, if I could only keep ONE machine it would be the Expert. The 202 is a much earlier design and although the best reproducer of its day, beating anything EMG had to offer, say 1927-30 period, the Expert from 1930 onwards simply wipes the floor with it. You can't narrow it down to "better bass" or "clearer vocals". It's something far more fundamental than that. When you hear the difference it is striking. One sounds natural and transparent with no harsh resonances, the other sounds very thin, boxey and metallic sounding in comparison. However, the 202 and to a lesser degree the 193/4 are still very very good machines that eat up and spit out most of the competition from that era. In my opinion, the 193/4 are better than the EMG Mark 8 and 10. They are certainly better than the EMG Mark 7! So if you're going to get ONE machine get an Expert Senior. However if you have to "make do" with a 193, be satisfied that it is better than most machines made before Expert arrived in 1930 or before EMG perfected the Mark 10A and B, and in saying that, it is one of the better machines of the real acoustic period ie. pre-1930.

HTH

Steve
Last edited by Steve on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Steve
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Re: Sound Comparison: Expert Senior or HMV 193

Post by Steve »

FWIW, I'd rank in terms of sound reproduction as below with best being No. 1:

1. Expert Senior
2. EMG 10B
3. EMG 10A
4. HMV 202
5. HMV 193/4
6. EMG Mark 10
7. EMG Mark 9
8. EMG Mark 8
9. HMV 163

Would an EMG Mark 7 be better than a 163 but weaker than a Mark 8? I've never be able to compare directly. I've also discounted the Expert Minor and Junior models for the time being as you are not considering them and I can't say I've been overly impressed with the ones I've heard to date.

In pure qualitative terms, there is not much gap between the top 3. There is quite a drop down to '4' and then a much smaller drop to '5'. The drops in quality are then very small and obviously this is all very subjective.

CarlosV
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Re: Sound Comparison: Expert Senior or HMV 193

Post by CarlosV »

If sound is your only criterion, I would go for the Expert as Steve suggests. The Expert and the EMG with their tonearms and horns bring a unique presence that the re-entrants cannot deliver, and that to my ears makes the biggest difference. The re-entrant I have is a US-Victor Credenza, which with its horn is well sealed and fitted with a properly operating orthophonic soundbox (the orthophonic delivers better sound than the English 5A-5B equivalent), produces a quite balanced sound that does not owe much to the EMG 10a I have, other than a reduced bass response. The striking difference is the presence felt when I listen standing in front of the EMG horn, which surpasses every other machine I heard. I also have an Expert Junior, with a smaller horn than the EMG, but with similar presence effect.

Now if aesthetics are also in your list of considerations, hmmm, Experts and EMGs are considered by normal people (i.e., people like my wife who don't really care about gramophones) some of the ugliest pieces that one could bring home, making a good match with a stuffed elephant's head. Credenza's and 194's and 202's are kind of dull but at least don't scare people away from your home.

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Steve
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Re: Sound Comparison: Expert Senior or HMV 193

Post by Steve »

Credenza's and 194's and 202's are kind of dull but at least don't scare people away from your home.
Of course "dull" doesn't always mean attractive and desirable. The words: coffin and wardrobe have been used on more than one occasion by some to describe these large machines. I now realise what it was I thought I was looking at when I first saw an EMG: a stuffed elephant's head!. Thank you, Carlos. ;)

Damfino59
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Re: Sound Comparison: Expert Senior or HMV 193

Post by Damfino59 »

As an owner of a HMV 194 for several years now I can attest to how good they sound. And as Carlos has mentioned the addition of a Victor Orthophonic sound box does improve the performance. Even with fiber needles as can be demonstrated on my uTube channel.

Several years ago I was able to hear a EMG 10b and was amazed by also the presence of the vocals and individual instruments. The EMG had a horn that was not restricted by folding, so I am using a not so scientific term of having unrestricted breathing!

So if you can afford only one and do have the opportunity go for the Expert Senior. That is what I would do.

https://www.youtube.com/user/Damfino59

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Re: Sound Comparison: Expert Senior or HMV 193

Post by Valecnik »

Yea visual appeal and sound quality definitely don't always go hand in hand. My wife loves the the Maroon Edison Gem but what a piece of crap to listen to... and yes, it's running properly, or as properly as those can, with a professionally rebuilt reproducer. :monkey:

2Bdecided
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Re: Sound Comparison: Expert Senior or HMV 193

Post by 2Bdecided »

I don't disagree with Steve's overall opinion, but it's worth emphasising just how different the two machines you're considering sound!

You really need to hear both before spending that kind of money - especially if you can't afford the other. Then again, you can probably sell either machine on easily if you change your mind. Neither will be a bad investment (unless you pay over the odds).

The HMV is more boxy and punchy. The Expert is clearer and sweeter. To my ears vocals are obviously better on the Expert and dance music is more fun on the HMV. Neither is "accurate" (a debatable point with 78s anyway), but the Expert is "less inaccurate" in the mid-range, while the HMV is slightly stronger in the mid bass. Neither covers the frequency extremes properly, though they stretch further towards those extremes than your average acoustic gramophone.

IME it's hard to find an HMV 5A sound box that works as well with fibre needles as an Expert sound box, but maybe I've never owned the right 5A. Thorn needles are fine. Expert gramophones always sound totally wrong with steel needles IMO (again, maybe I haven't found the right sound box), whereas the HMVs can sound right with either. To my ears, that's not because they're better, but because the HMV's frequency response is a compromise between what's right with steels and thorns, whereas the Expert's frequency response is clearly designed to match thorns and is way off with steels.

This is all so subjective. You really must listen for yourself.

Cheers,
David.

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Steve
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Re: Sound Comparison: Expert Senior or HMV 193

Post by Steve »

I don't hear the 202 as being particularly "more punchy" than the Expert. If anything it is the other way around. The bass is much deeper and tighter on the Expert. The sound is also more refined and controlled on the Expert, everything is clearer and some instruments are rendered especially tactile in quality. These big horns are remarkable reproducers of sound. I would say that in comparison to EVERYTHING else, the 202 sounds pretty awesome and has plenty of kick and volume. In comparison to the Expert, it sounds very thin, brittle and somewhat artificial. I agree with David though that it is more flexible with both steel and fibre needles. Incidentally, I rebuilt my 5A soundbox and with unworn records I can play many jazz sides with a bamboo needle. The Expert 2-spring soundbox WAS designed to be used with both steel and fibre needles, although some collectors do prefer the 4-spring variants. I have both, and although I tend to use fibres exclusively, I do listen with a 2-spring soundbox because, to my ears, it is every bit as good as the 4-springs BUT it is much lighter and induces less drag on the record.

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OrthoSean
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Re: Sound Comparison: Expert Senior or HMV 193

Post by OrthoSean »

Steve wrote:I do listen with a 2-spring soundbox because, to my ears, it is every bit as good as the 4-springs BUT it is much lighter and induces less drag on the record.
I'm glad to hear somebody else say this. My 2 spring EMG soundbox literally blows the doors off anything else I've ever heard, although Meltropes (I have a I and a III) are both very close runners-up. After fussing with my 2 spring almost to the point of madness, I've got it adjusted probably as good as it can be, it plays wonderfully with any type of needle, but I use almost nothing but bamboo with it since it's almost deafening with even soft tone steel. Steve may remember me discussing this before. My "record" is 12 sides before having to repoint the bamboo point. It weighs I think the same as an Exhibition, perhaps a tad more, but that's all, and record wear has almost never been an issue. I've said this elsewhere as well, but the EMG is pretty much the only machine I play regularly (OK, sometimes over an hour every night!). My 163, 8-9, 8-35, 10-50 and Credenza have been feeling rather neglected ever since that small box with the big funny looking horn moved in!

Sean

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