Thorens gramophone - Is it real?

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Rick E
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Thorens gramophone - Is it real?

Post by Rick E »

Here is an odd machine. It has an embossed wood, pyramidal case, a front mount horn, and a 5 inch turntable. The turntable is not centered, but appears to be correct as the brake engages its edge from underneath. The horn mount is on the top, rather on a side. I cannot find holes suggesting a side mount, nor do I see holes suggesting that the motor, speed control, and brake were originally placed differently. There are no labels, but the motor is stamped Thorens Switzerland. The speed control (Fast, Slow) is in English.

I really like the case, but the gramophone is so strange. What is this machine? Is it some put-together composite or a child's machine? Does it appear in any Thorens's catalogs from the early 1900s? Help!
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epigramophone
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Re: Thorens gramophone - Is it real?

Post by epigramophone »

Frankenphone bordering on Crapophone. Where do I begin?

HMV 1920's style speed control.
Columbia/Garrard turntable brake.
Philips screws attaching the horn support.
Case sides probably from the local DIY store.
Brass feet ready to damage any wooden surface.

Avoid!

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jamiegramo
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Re: Thorens gramophone - Is it real?

Post by jamiegramo »

Hi Rick,

What epigramophone said is all quite true down to the Philips screws

This is a recent creation, quite a few like it being sold from Germany although like other crapophones, I assume, made in India.

Thorens produced their own machines but were a large supplier of motors and parts to other makers so this motor likely came out of a portable or other smaller machine. You can see the same brake and speed control being used here;

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cWqcnx9vY7U

Jamie

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Steve
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Re: Thorens gramophone - Is it real?

Post by Steve »

A creation just fit for most UK auction rooms where it no doubt would be described with little more than four words but enough to suggest its genuine along with the single mandatory photograph.

If you dare ask about it you'll get one of the following happening:

1. You'll be ignored completely or told its too early for them to assist you before the sale and that they'll come back to you later .......but they won't.

2. They'll reply with pictures of an HMV portable in blue case described as a Columbia in a brown one!

3. They'll say the wooden case is metal.

4. They'll describe it as being in perfect condition even though its eaten away with woodworm.

5. They'll say they are not specialist experts on the subject but they had a similar item sell for the same price a few months ago even though that was a Decca portable and it never sold anyway.

6. They'll tell you its all original and hasn't been restored even when the varnish hasn't finished drying yet.

I'm thinking of starting up my own auction company but the main problem I have is finding completely and utterly incompetent staff suitable to run the show.

I reckon this is one significant reason why items sell for far less in the UK than they do in Europe and the States where in general things are properly identified and catalogued.

Does anyone else have completely negative experience with UK auctioneers or am I just the lucky one? :lol:

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jamiegramo
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Re: Thorens gramophone - Is it real?

Post by jamiegramo »

Steve wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:32 pm
Does anyone else have completely negative experience with UK auctioneers or am I just the lucky one? :lol:
The German ones aren’t much better, I don’t get a reply from them.

It’s the buyer’s premiums that I find most shocking. Put it onto the seller’s premium and effectively so many lots are being ‘given’ to the auctioneer.

epigramophone
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Re: Thorens gramophone - Is it real?

Post by epigramophone »

I am old enough to remember auctions before September 1975, which is when Christie's and Sotheby's introduced buyer's premiums to the UK. Needless to say, the rest of the auction trade quickly followed suit.

During lockdown, when bidding has had to be on line or by telephone, buyer's premiums have increased to 30% and more. It will be interesting to see whether they return to pre-Covid levels when normal service is resumed.

Dulcetto
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Re: Thorens gramophone - Is it real?

Post by Dulcetto »

Steve wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:32 pm A creation just fit for most UK auction rooms where it no doubt would be described with little more than four words but enough to suggest its genuine along with the single mandatory photograph.

If you dare ask about it you'll get one of the following happening:

1. You'll be ignored completely or told its too early for them to assist you before the sale and that they'll come back to you later .......but they won't.

2. They'll reply with pictures of an HMV portable in blue case described as a Columbia in a brown one!

3. They'll say the wooden case is metal.

4. They'll describe it as being in perfect condition even though its eaten away with woodworm.

5. They'll say they are not specialist experts on the subject but they had a similar item sell for the same price a few months ago even though that was a Decca portable and it never sold anyway.

6. They'll tell you its all original and hasn't been restored even when the varnish hasn't finished drying yet.

I'm thinking of starting up my own auction company but the main problem I have is finding completely and utterly incompetent staff suitable to run the show.

I reckon this is one significant reason why items sell for far less in the UK than they do in Europe and the States where in general things are properly identified and catalogued.

Does anyone else have completely negative experience with UK auctioneers or am I just the lucky one? :lol:
Yes Steve , all of the above I can agree with ! OK , some UK auction rooms seem to be on the ball and are really helpful , but I'm afraid to say that in my experience of many years dealing with them , the larger majority fall into the category that you have described.

The other one you forgot to mention , --- if you ask for extra pictures other than the ones they have in their online catalogue , with a specific request as to condition of outside of case , or condition of turntable felt as the online pictures shows a stack of 78's obscuring that detail , they send you all the pictures they have already posted online and if yuo're really lucky , one additional photo which shows you nothing that you've asked about .

Talking about incompetent staff, a few months ago I collected some portable grams from a well known southern auction rooms , and the stupid porter brought them out to me carrying them by their original leather handles ! -- when I remonstrated and said you NEVER carry weight on a leather handle that's around 100 years old as it could be half perished and break at any time if a strain is put on it -- never got an apology or any words at all for that matter ! Of course the real problem is that the staff are not TRAINED how to handle and respect old items . Why ? because no one cares !! As my father used to say of auction rooms , the reason they act the way they do is because " they make their money too easily " . As Epigramophone has pointed out , most want 30 percent buyer's premium nowadays , a few are even approaching 40 percent. I feel the industry is actually at tipping point now -- but they just can't see it !

As some one else once mentioned , auctioneers are really just " rag and bone men in suits ".

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