NUNTIO VOBIS GAUDIUM MAGNUM: La Voix De Son Maître HMV 163!

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Marco Gilardetti
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Re: NUNTIO VOBIS GAUDIUM MAGNUM: La Voix De Son Maître HMV 1

Post by Marco Gilardetti »

Thank you very much Robert, you're the third-in-line that suggests to me to try out this machine with an Orthophonic! :D It should definitely be something that one would like to try out!

I believe, however, that these soundboxes are very hard to find, which also limits the possibility that anyone would decide to part from a well-sounding sample in good conditions. I'll keep my eyes open, though!

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Re: NUNTIO VOBIS GAUDIUM MAGNUM: La Voix De Son Maître HMV 1

Post by CarlosV »

Marco Gilardetti wrote: I thought that 5A/5B and Orthophonic were more or less the same type of soundbox, with the Orthophonic having the further defect of being non-openable for maintenance. Are there any substantial (also soundwise) differences then?
Marco, the orthophonic is serviceable, but needs an expert with the proper tools to do a good job. There is the brass one, which is the earliest production, not so easy to find and quite expensive, abut also the later pot metal ones made for portables, which are identical except for an external felt-lined protection cover over the diaphragm. You can find these relatively easily, and normally in good shape. I have also a pair of HMV 5's, which is the identical design to the orthophonic, in relatively good shape, but I don't use them as I did not send them for rehaul. When properly serviced, these orthophonics sound much better than the HMV 5A-5Bs, with a more balanced sound over the spectrum. They differ from each other in significant parts, like the diaphragm and the needle bar linkage (the orthophonic has bearings).

Good that you ordered the thorns, you will like what you will hear! You will need a good sharpener as well. I recommend the Meltrope, it looks over-engineered but works very well. It is easily found on English eBay.

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Re: NUNTIO VOBIS GAUDIUM MAGNUM: La Voix De Son Maître HMV 1

Post by Inigo »

Marco, and friends... I've never had an orthophonic or HMV no 5, so I cannot judge by myself.
But I know the 5a and 5b, and I have to say that these soundboxes can sound marvelously when properly tuned to the horn they are feeding. And sorry, but there isn't two of them that sound the same! Subtle differences in the mechanisation of parts, and in the adjustments can make noticeable differences in sound. And I'm afraid adjusting these to their optimum is a process of trial and error, and must be duly made on the same machine that you're going to use.
It's not the idea to press anyone or make them feel discontented, but to encourage anyone on engaging in this, daunting, funny and long process of adjusting the soundbox to give it's best. The results are worth the patience, perseverance and delicate work, for they can be really amazing.
I've discovered this after twenty years adjusting these soundboxes patiently. My own 5a, originally came with my 194. But when restored and adjusted as per factory instructions, sounded compressed, and pumped out sound with a certain unpleasant quality. All was in there, the treble, the bass, the crispness and clarity... But simply, the mixture wasn't well balanced. After years of learning, adjustments and trials, I finally arrived at a point where I can assure without doubt that this soundbox cannot sound better than today. But even the change of subtle things like air temperature can make noticeable changes in sound, yet very subtle.
I've followed all advices given by experimented collectors and restorers in this forum and others. And I've added my own ideas and experiments.
I duly cleaned the diaphragm with cotton sticks and solvent, to get rid of the almost unadverted layer of oxidised aluminium which grows over the material after years of being exposed to air. I readjusted the spider, sealing the small holes with lacquer or vinyl glue. I polished the inner parts of the backplate, and the bullet attached to the air outlet, and the three air passages around it, which had small burrs from the molding process. I put good thin felt gaskets. I adjusted the needlebar bearings many times until I got a proper sweet point. I adjusted the backplate so it exerts but the smallest pressure on the gaskets, just as needed for airtightness and no more. I sealed the gap between the backplate and front ring with vinyl glue all around, two layers. I fitted a supple back rubber ring, the red one usually sold for the Meltrope or EMG soundbox, which can be installed in the backplate removing the old HMV neck rubber isolator with its brass ring. This also helps when adjusting the soundbox angle, for the red rubber ring has no locking pin. It fits on the tonearm by pressure only, aided with a dab of vaseline or even a drop of water.
All these operations and adjustments, learned through years of reading, tests and trials, have led to a wonderful balanced sound, much better than before.. When you close your eyes and play a Heifetz, Kreisler or Casals recording... they simply seem to be playing in the room beside you.
Inigo

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Re: NUNTIO VOBIS GAUDIUM MAGNUM: La Voix De Son Maître HMV 1

Post by SteveM »

Wow. Wonderful, vivid impressions there, Inigo. Thanks!
Plus, it makes me realize that I really have no business ever opening mine up in the first place :shock: :)
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Re: NUNTIO VOBIS GAUDIUM MAGNUM: La Voix De Son Maître HMV 1

Post by HMVDevotee »

Inigo,

I agree with SteveM, both your explanation of the complexities of servicing a soundbox as well as identifying all the aspects that influence sound makes me convinced that I need a professional to tune-up my HMV 5a and b. Only then will a comparison with my professionally rebuilt brass Orthophonic make sense.

What's more, it occurs to me that, since all horn designs have acoustic properties of their own, the sweet spot just might be a combination of horn, reproducer and reproducer "settings," so to speak. What sounds better on one machine may differ with another. (Add needle type and we have another variable!)

Nonetheless, your extensive work and experience with your HMV194 and the HMV5a proves invaluable; I assume my 193 with the same horn will respond similarly to a well-tuned 5a and is worth pursuing. And that's the beauty of this Forum...guys willing to share information that helps us all!

Robert

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Re: NUNTIO VOBIS GAUDIUM MAGNUM: La Voix De Son Maître HMV 1

Post by Inigo »

These things are not so difficult to do, is just a matter of patience and delicacy. Perhaps the point I've found most difficult was to properly adjust the needle bar bearings. They are the same as for no4 soundbox, with the little nuts and the back cap screws. I found it difficult to get the sweet spot and then tighten the cap screws without modifying the adjustment. You need three or four hands!
On an old 5a I restored, I lost one of the tiny steel balls inside the bearings, and as it was a scrappy soundbox, used for learning and seeing how far could I go, even restoring holes in the diaphragm, I decided to substitute by two smaller balls I had at hand. Can't you believe how easy was the final adjustment, and how well this soundbox performs! It lacks a bit of the high treble end, but the warmth of sound and the volume are incredible! Certainly the 5a diaphragm is more flexible than the 5b, and this terrifies the bass... 5b sounds more balanced, but the 5a is very funny on certain records!
Inigo

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Re: NUNTIO VOBIS GAUDIUM MAGNUM: La Voix De Son Maître HMV 1

Post by Inigo »

And yes, of course, the soundbox must be finely tuned for the horn where it's going to play. Factory settings were such that the same soundbox can be used on the short small horn of the 102, going up in the scale through the intermediate horns and ending in the huge (reportedly 9 feet long) horn of the 202/3, giving fairly good results on all them. This is real, but as one penetrates a couple of steps into the physics of each system, one discovers that either 1) this is impossible (clearly not!) or 2) further optimization and fine tuning specifically for each size of air column is possible!! Simple logic. What works for the 7-feet system of the 193/4 cannot be the same for the 3-feet of the 102. A much greater air column means a greater load on the diaphragm and on the record groove.
Inigo

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Re: NUNTIO VOBIS GAUDIUM MAGNUM: La Voix De Son Maître HMV 1

Post by Marco Gilardetti »

During Christmas holidays I could find the time to build a trolley that helps greatly moving the HMV 163 around the house! :D

For some reason the colour difference is enhanced in the pictures but it's quite a close match in reality, even more if you consider that the trolley was crafted with plywood.
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Re: NUNTIO VOBIS GAUDIUM MAGNUM: La Voix De Son Maître HMV 1

Post by Marco Gilardetti »

And so it came summer, and with it it came rehaul-time for the motor of my beloved HMV 163!!! :D

It turned out that the coils seemed to be just fine, so although I purchased a replacement, I decided to re-install the factory originals. The "Gramophone Co." logos were still readable on the tails, and I tried to take a picture of them - who knows, I might not see them again in my life.

I would like to thank once again very much Robert (HMVDevotee) who has been so kind to mail me a spare arrow pointer and all the relative hardware for the speed indicator, which was missing some relevant parts. It works perfectly now and it's a subtle pleasure to see it in action! :rose:

Thanks also to my old friend and schoolpal Marco (yes, same name as mine!) who assisted me with great patience during this - literally - "dirty work". :D

(Double-click the video above or click this link to go to the video on YouTube.)

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Re: NUNTIO VOBIS GAUDIUM MAGNUM: La Voix De Son Maître HMV 1

Post by Inigo »

Marco, congratulations. I hope you'll greatly enjoy your machine. These hmv reentrants are indeed a marvel. Despite all what I've written about the fine adjustments on the soundbox, you'll find that the basic sound they deliver is great. I was only talking about possible fine improvements, over a basic terribly good sound. These are a great source of entertainment as in my case; if you ever happen to own a surplus soundbox, you can try these experiments with the surplus soundbox, then comparing with the basic one to see (indeed hear) which one satisfies you the most. And if you happen to develop in time such a fine hearing, you'll find that one soundbox is better for bumpy dance records of the twenties, and maybe you prefer the other for classical music recordings. There is a fundamental different sound between these two classes, which can be represented by these examples:
On one hand, records like a studio jazz band, or, say, Victor recordings of the Victor orchestra conducted by Nat Shilkret, or the High Haters, or The Troubadours, conducted by Leroy Shield... That kind of records. Also things as the Duke Ellington recordings of the twenties and thirties, or, say, the Fats Waller Buddies, etc. These dance studio records are done with much miking, kind of a forced sound, to be loud and bumpy for funny dancing or toe-tapping.

On the other hand you'll have the recordings done in a great room, with ambient microphones, where you listen to music more really as if you were in a concert hall. These are, of course, orchestral records, opera, etc. There are also dance bands that recorded this way, as the Jack Hylton British recordings (for hmv, as their Decca recordings sound like studio recordings), or the German electrola records by Marek Weber orchestra, also German Polydor/Grammophon recordings of big dance orchestras. On these you'll hear the music and the ambience echoes of the concert hall.
You'll learn soon to distinguish these two types of recordings, and you'll see (hear) that one different soundbox is better for each type.
These are only fine distinctions that you'll learn to develop in years of listening, and you'll enjoy experimenting with soundboxes and hearing how different adjustments affect the sound of these different types of recordings.
I'll wish you hundreds of happy hours of listening, playing records and tinkering with soundbox adjustments. Lots of fun ahead!
Inigo

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