HMV Model 87 portable, in...green color

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nostalgia
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Re: HMV Model 87 portable, in...green color

Post by nostalgia »

Roger, please read carefully on page 215 in "The Book", does it not say that model 87 A had this particular needle bowl, and that this model was made between 1937-39? If one look at the black model 87 in the book, this model does not have the needle bowl in the front right. On the model 87, the speed indicator seems to be on the front right side, while it on my 87A, is on the left side.

Update: Now I became so curious that I had to remove the turntable to look for the number plate (before a late breakfast;:). I post the photo of the number plate, it is a 87A, and I guess we then can determine that it was made between 1937-39. Myself I am not able to narrow it down more, since I don't have the manufacture number list on these later HMV models.
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Oedipus
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Re: HMV Model 87 portable, in...green color

Post by Oedipus »

The figure 1 after the 'B' indicates that this was made in 1937. The reason I was unable to state what colours were available for the model 87 is that it was an export model, and not listed in any UK catalogues or advertisements. So I am indeed grateful (though not surprised) to see that green was made, and I expect blue was as well. One of the economies in this cheap gramophone was the use of leatherette paper (rather than cloth such as Rexine) for the motor board and the lid interior. Hence the wear patch by the needle bowl, but some paint could be used to touch it in and mitigate the effect.

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nostalgia
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Re: HMV Model 87 portable, in...green color

Post by nostalgia »

Thank you so much Oedipus for sharing your information about dating, and also for recommending how to amend the area around the needle bowl. Yes, I felt the material used was very different from the leatherette cloth (Rexin) used on HMV 101/102, that it is paper explains why it easily breaks and feels of a different texture. I am also happy to hear you enjoyed the photos I uploaded of this green model 87. I always felt sharing such vital information is of big interest, and also important from a historical and cultural perspective.
And yes, the model 87 also was made in blue. I post a photo:) It does not belong to me, but it proves it's existence. From the needle bowl on the right side, I guess we can also likewise determine that it is a model 87A, made during 1937-39.
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HMV model 87, in blue color.jpg
HMV model 87, in blue color.jpg (51.96 KiB) Viewed 2108 times

Oedipus
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Re: HMV Model 87 portable, in...green color

Post by Oedipus »

Thank you for the blue one - also an A, and it's possible, I suppose, that only the 'A' versions came in colours other than black! Something else to look out for. I omitted to point out before, that the 87A also has a different motor (hence the different position of the speed control, and of the winding hole). It is probably a 26590, whereas the 897 had a 794 motor. The two motors are similar, but the later one has a larger winding gear, which pushes the winding hole further towards the front of the case. You can just see this in the picture of the black and blue models.

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Re: HMV Model 87 portable, in...green color

Post by nostalgia »

I need to reopen this thread, since I need some assistance with the motor. I have on the photos called it a 794 motor, but that is probably wrong, reading Oedipus' last post here back in January (2020). I will rename the photos when the number of the motor is confirmed, if it is a 26590 motor. (Update: It is a HMV 26589 motor)
I opened this Model 87 yesterday and removed the motor, it spins.. but run at a crazy speed, and the governor need to be adjusted, and I will of course also service the complete motor. The motor though looks very different from motors found inside the 101 and 102, so I will be really careful when removing the parts. It is the governor speed adjustment that I sense is the main problem, it is almost totally stuck, and I need to use real force to be able to move it at all. Is it something in particular I should pay attention to when trying to remove this motor part (governor speed adjustment), that also is new to me? Also, the brake pad looks very thin to me, but I choose to ask what size it should be, instead of guessing, since the complete motor is so different, and also the governor parts look more fragile (economic) on this motor, than on earlier HMV motors for portables.
Any guidance or suggestions are appreciated really that are unique for this motor, when taking into consideration that I already have serviced different motors for the 101 and 102 portables ( and bigger motors that have no relevance to this motor).
I post some photos, also because many in here most probably also have not seen this motor in detail.
Attachments
HMV 26589 motor governor.jpg
HMV 26589 motor (3).jpg
HMV 26589 motor (2).jpg
HMV 26589 motor (1).jpg
Last edited by nostalgia on Sun May 10, 2020 5:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: HMV Model 87 portable, in...green color

Post by Marco Gilardetti »

The springs that hold the governor's weights shouldn't be bent as an arch (as they are in picture) when the motor is still, otherwise they'll have no chance to flex when the motor is revolving. Hence the high speed.

It looks as if at the rightmost part of the governor there's some sort of assembly that holds the right end of the springs, perhaps pre-tensioning them. I never happened to see anything like this and I don't even know if it's an original part (the springs are usually screwed to the governor's axle). In any case, you either have to pre-tension the springs, or get rid of non-original parts and replace the springs with a pair of flat ones.

gramophoneshane
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Re: HMV Model 87 portable, in...green color

Post by gramophoneshane »

I think Garrard used a similar governor spring set up on some of their later spring motors and early electrics, but I can't tell from the pictures if it's the same system employed.

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Re: HMV Model 87 portable, in...green color

Post by nostalgia »

This governor spring is a mystery to me. I have today disassembled it. A small lock ring is holding the governor springs at each end, but when I removed the rings, and also the spring blades, there was absolutely no movement in the main governor part that is normally contracting and expanding ( excuse the lack of correct names for all motor parts). And, if the weights are about to flex in this position, as you say Marco, they would even make bigger arches than they already have when in this locked position, IF the governor itself was movable. I also have looked at both attatchments points of the spring blades, and cant really see anything that is broken, and the even stranger part of it all, is that they seem genuine, but how can they be really?
There is a screw on top of the motor, beside the spinner, that is adjusting the felt brake on the governor, but it of course can not regulate the speed evenly when there is no flexing in the governor spring itself.
If someone know this motor, I would really appreciate much some input, if not...I can't really see how I can fix it, apart from exchanging the whole governor with a governor spring from a different HMV motor, if they at all will fit, or wait for another HMV Model 87 to come around, and compare the two motors. I tested a governor from a HMV 102 today, and it did not fit at all, since that governor is built totally diffent than the governor spring belonging to this motor. I upload some more photos, so you all can see the governor in detail.
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governor (5).jpg
governor (3).jpg
governor (2).jpg
governor (1).jpg

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Re: HMV Model 87 portable, in...green color

Post by physicist »

Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious, part A should be able to slide easily along part B.
If the motor hasn't been cleaned for a long time there could be dirt or dried grease preventing free movement. You could try pulling it apart, cleaning and oiling it and then see if the correct behaviour is restored.
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governor (6).jpg
governor (6).jpg (67.72 KiB) Viewed 1915 times

Phono48
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Re: HMV Model 87 portable, in...green color

Post by Phono48 »

I agree with the above advice. If you can't separate the two parts, warming the join with a hair dryer to melt the old grease should work. When you have them separated clean the inside of the brass tube with a cotton bud soaked in thinners, white spirit, or anything that will dissolve the grease, then thoroughly clean the steel shaft with fine wire wool, and polish it. When assembled, put a drop of thin oil on the shaft, and test to ensure the two parts slide smoothly.

Barry

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