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 Post subject: Re: HMV 162 - new purchase - advice please
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:15 am 
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Victor Jr
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:27 am
Posts: 18
Location: The south of England
Steve wrote:
The lid appears to be refinished in the picture so I'd be tempted to strip it down and start again.

The finish on the lid is certainly the worse on the case. The light circular scratching is my fault when I put the motor board down on some newspaper on the top. There is a certain blochiness on the top but I need to give it a good clean to see how bad it really is

Steve wrote:
I have no idea why the internal face of the doors are oak but the motor board and inside of lid appear to be deep burgundy colour like mahogany. It doesn't look quite right to me.


Yes - now I look at the photo again - it does look rather like my other one which is mahogany on the inside. I have reshot some photos of this one which show the finish better. The colour match over the whole machine is better than the photos suggest.

Thanks for the suggestions


Attachments:
File comment: Lid / hinge
20200123_220048.jpg
20200123_220048.jpg [ 391.12 KiB | Viewed 345 times ]
File comment: Motor board
20200123_220114.jpg
20200123_220114.jpg [ 319.82 KiB | Viewed 345 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: HMV 162 - new purchase - advice please
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm 
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Victor Jr
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:27 am
Posts: 18
Location: The south of England
Had the motor board out today as I going to starting cleaning and testing the motor

I noticed that on the edge of the board with the tonearm - there seems to be an embossed number "204" or maybe "2o4". On the motor board is the same number though the 4 is so faint its almost unreadable. This is the only number I have found on the machine so far (except the 162 badge). The little metal tag below the keyhole behind the volume doors has nothing on it (and doesn't feel like it ever did). I'll also have a look at my other 162 to see if anything is embossed on the boards of that. That one does have a number on the metal tag

Is this likely to be a serial number? Thanks


Attachments:
motorboard.jpg
motorboard.jpg [ 1.17 MiB | Viewed 262 times ]
tonearmboard.jpg
tonearmboard.jpg [ 2.46 MiB | Viewed 262 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: HMV 162 - new purchase - advice please
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:12 pm 
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Victor V
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:21 pm
Posts: 2593
I think the numbers on the timber are cabinet makers marks, probably to ensure both boards remain paired for uniform grain and thickness.
Not sure about the numbers on the metal tag. I'll have to look at my 162 tonight to see if any are present on my tag.


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 Post subject: Re: HMV 162 - new purchase - advice please
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:13 am 
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Victor VI
His epigrams are all his own, the man's an epigramophone!
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:21 pm
Posts: 3015
Location: The Somerset Levels, UK.
gramophoneshane wrote:
I think the numbers on the timber are cabinet makers marks, probably to ensure both boards remain paired for uniform grain and thickness.
Not sure about the numbers on the metal tag. I'll have to look at my 162 tonight to see if any are present on my tag.


The serial number is often found on a circular ivorine plaque beneath the removable used needle container, but they sometimes go missing.


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 Post subject: Re: HMV 162 - new purchase - advice please
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:44 am 
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Victor O
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:59 am
Posts: 70
I think the timber is probably teak, which suggests that this machine originated in India. That would account for the anachronistic Nipper transfer, which gradually disappeared from London cabinets from 1924 onwards as old stock cabinets were used up, and certainly would not have been put on this new 1927-season cabinet had it been for the UK market. The inside of the door looks more oak-like than mahogany, but it would be slash-cut oak, not the figured quarter-cut variety that HMV used at this time even for the insides of doors. Teak can look just like this and it can also look very like mahogany. The Indian factory used this local timber for most cabinet, and finished it in a choice of oak or mahogany colour.

You would not find a serial number on a celluloid plaque on this machine, because that type of plaque only came in after the gilt transfer with the model number on it.

The model number 162 might be stamped on top of the wood mouth of the horn, but this practice seems to have ceased about this time.

I think someone referred to this as a 'console' model. It is not; a console, otherwise known as a Horizontal Grand, is wider and lower, with the record compartment alongside the horn rather than under it. (Consoles therefore take up more floor space,making them particularly unpopular with collectors, who are, by definition, short of space!)


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 Post subject: Re: HMV 162 - new purchase - advice please
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:55 pm 
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Victor V
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:21 pm
Posts: 2593
I looked at the metal tag on my 162, and it does indeed have numbers embossed on it. Mine is 2519.
I then checked my 109 and it's embossed 8587x , so I'm beginning to think you may be right, and these numbers are serial numbers??
I assume the "X" on the 109 would indicate one of the 109 model variations?
I'll have to check my export Model Bungalow in the morning and see what's on its tag. I think from memory one of my 101's also has a similar tag.

That's a good call Oedipus made on the cabinet perhaps being teak and from India. That would certainly explain the transfer/decal, the difference in cabinet dimensions, and it having no number embossed on the metal tag. Indian production numbers were probably so low they wouldn't feel a need to allot serial numbers.


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 Post subject: Re: HMV 162 - new purchase - advice please
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:58 pm 
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Victor Jr
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:27 am
Posts: 18
Location: The south of England
gramophoneshane wrote:
I think the numbers on the timber are cabinet makers marks, probably to ensure both boards remain paired for uniform grain and thickness.


Yes - that makes sense. Thanks.

gramophoneshane wrote:
I looked at the metal tag on my 162, and it does indeed have numbers embossed on it. Mine is 2519.


I have not had a chance to pull the motor board on my other 162 - but the tag on that one
is stamped 1625

Oedipus wrote:
I think the timber is probably teak, which suggests that this machine originated in India. That would account for the anachronistic Nipper transfer, which gradually disappeared from London cabinets from 1924 onwards as old stock cabinets were used up, and certainly would not have been put on this new 1927-season cabinet had it been for the UK market.


Well that is a most interesting idea and certainly could explain a lot! Thank you. Since obtaining the machine I have always felt there was a considerable distance between this one and my other 162. I was thinking distance in time - but if they were also made in different factories in different countries this could explain the many minor differences in the cases. Presumably drawings would have been sent out - so the Indian HMV factory might not have had a UK made example to compare against? Would the metal parts have been made in India too or imported in?

I also happened to see an example of a teak wooden bucket on a TV show yesterday (before I read your response) and was struck by the similarity of the colour and the figuring of the wood to the section preserved underneath the platter.

I have noticed that discussions on teak machines come up on this board from time to time and examples seem to be sought after - however I never for a moment considered this 162 to be one. I had no idea the 162 was also made in India.

Oedipus wrote:
You would not find a serial number on a celluloid plaque on this machine, because that type of plaque only came in after the gilt transfer with the model number on it.


Well I pulled the spent needle tray out of both of my 162s and neither had anything underneath - though the other one has a hole - reason not clear

Oedipus wrote:
The model number 162 might be stamped on top of the wood mouth of the horn, but this practice seems to have ceased about this time.


No number on the wood - but there is some writing on the metal horn itself, though very difficult to read. I'll upload a photo. I can make out the words (I think) "MODELO REGISTRADO" which appear to be Spanish - so maybe the mystery deepens?


gramophoneshane wrote:
That's a good call Oedipus made on the cabinet perhaps being teak and from India. That would certainly explain the transfer/decal, the difference in cabinet dimensions, and it having no number embossed on the metal tag. Indian production numbers were probably so low they wouldn't feel a need to allot serial numbers.


Indeed - and presumably makes this 162 rather more interesting as teak ones must be reasonably rare. :)

Thanks to everybody for the great info and insight! :-) This machine was a keeper anyway!


Attachments:
File comment: I think I can make out "MODELO REGISTRADO" and a bunch of numbers :-)
horndetail.jpg
horndetail.jpg [ 3 MiB | Viewed 221 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: HMV 162 - new purchase - advice please
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:34 pm 
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Victor V
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:21 pm
Posts: 2593
You asked about whether the metal parts were imported or not.

I was actually wondering the same thing last night about the lubrication diagrams on the underside of the motor board.
I've never seen a colonial model of any kind in person, and wondered if the diagrams would have been shipped along with the motors to India from England, or if perhaps they were printed in India. That is of course assuming such diagrams are even present on these Indian machines.


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 Post subject: Re: HMV 162 - new purchase - advice please
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:07 am 
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Victor Jr
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:27 am
Posts: 18
Location: The south of England
gramophoneshane wrote:
I've never seen a colonial model of any kind in person, and wondered if the diagrams would have been shipped along with the motors to India from England, or if perhaps they were printed in India. That is of course assuming such diagrams are even present on these Indian machines.


Well on the basis that this one is a colonial model, it's interesting to note that there is no diagram on the back of the motor board, and no obvious sign there was one. My other 162 does have one though.


Attachments:
20200214_185912.jpg
20200214_185912.jpg [ 1.22 MiB | Viewed 171 times ]


Last edited by mrrgstuff on Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: HMV 162 - new purchase - advice please
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:55 am 
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Victor VI
His epigrams are all his own, the man's an epigramophone!
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:21 pm
Posts: 3015
Location: The Somerset Levels, UK.
My understanding is that HMV shipped mechanical components from Hayes to their Indian factory, where they were assembled into locally made cases using locally sourced wood, usually teak.

HMV were also known to have cleared obsolete stock by sending it off for sale in the outposts of the British Empire. The demand for spring powered machines in countries without a reliable mains electricity supply remained strong, long after the home market had updated to radiograms.


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