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 Post subject: Re: HMV 162 - new purchase - advice please
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:59 pm 
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Victor Jr
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epigramophone wrote:
My understanding is that HMV shipped mechanical components from Hayes to their Indian factory, where they were assembled into locally made cases using locally sourced wood, usually teak.


Yes, that makes a lot of sense and is what I would have expected. The transfer could have been old stock shipped out like you say as well. So although I had assumed this was an early example based on the transfer and the case being less refined, it could be a later one. Probably no way to tell.

Still curious about the Spanish on the horn. I will have to open up my other 162 and compare.
Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: HMV 162 - new purchase - advice please
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:51 am 
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Victor III
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mrrgstuff wrote:
gramophoneshane wrote:
I think the numbers on the timber are cabinet makers marks, probably to ensure both boards remain paired for uniform grain and thickness.


Yes - that makes sense. Thanks.

gramophoneshane wrote:
I looked at the metal tag on my 162, and it does indeed have numbers embossed on it. Mine is 2519.


I have not had a chance to pull the motor board on my other 162 - but the tag on that one
is stamped 1625

Oedipus wrote:
I think the timber is probably teak, which suggests that this machine originated in India. That would account for the anachronistic Nipper transfer, which gradually disappeared from London cabinets from 1924 onwards as old stock cabinets were used up, and certainly would not have been put on this new 1927-season cabinet had it been for the UK market.


Well that is a most interesting idea and certainly could explain a lot! Thank you. Since obtaining the machine I have always felt there was a considerable distance between this one and my other 162. I was thinking distance in time - but if they were also made in different factories in different countries this could explain the many minor differences in the cases. Presumably drawings would have been sent out - so the Indian HMV factory might not have had a UK made example to compare against? Would the metal parts have been made in India too or imported in?

I also happened to see an example of a teak wooden bucket on a TV show yesterday (before I read your response) and was struck by the similarity of the colour and the figuring of the wood to the section preserved underneath the platter.

I have noticed that discussions on teak machines come up on this board from time to time and examples seem to be sought after - however I never for a moment considered this 162 to be one. I had no idea the 162 was also made in India.

Oedipus wrote:
You would not find a serial number on a celluloid plaque on this machine, because that type of plaque only came in after the gilt transfer with the model number on it.


Well I pulled the spent needle tray out of both of my 162s and neither had anything underneath - though the other one has a hole - reason not clear

Oedipus wrote:
The model number 162 might be stamped on top of the wood mouth of the horn, but this practice seems to have ceased about this time.


No number on the wood - but there is some writing on the metal horn itself, though very difficult to read. I'll upload a photo. I can make out the words (I think) "MODELO REGISTRADO" which appear to be Spanish - so maybe the mystery deepens?


gramophoneshane wrote:
That's a good call Oedipus made on the cabinet perhaps being teak and from India. That would certainly explain the transfer/decal, the difference in cabinet dimensions, and it having no number embossed on the metal tag. Indian production numbers were probably so low they wouldn't feel a need to allot serial numbers.


Indeed - and presumably makes this 162 rather more interesting as teak ones must be reasonably rare. :)

Thanks to everybody for the great info and insight! :-) This machine was a keeper anyway!


I seem to remember seeing this horn lettering before. I can't quite remember exactly. Were they patent numbers and were they on a portable HMV 100 ? Could there be another thread on here which refers to it maybe ?
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Last edited by poodling around on Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: HMV 162 - new purchase - advice please
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:19 am 
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Victor III
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Aha ! Yes ! I have seen it on one of my machines - the HMV 101 (front wind) horn I think.


Attachments:
horn.jpg
horn.jpg [ 292.86 KiB | Viewed 781 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: HMV 162 - new purchase - advice please
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:24 pm 
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Victor Jr
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poodling around wrote:
Aha ! Yes ! I have seen it on one of my machines - the HMV 101 (front wind) horn I think.


Thanks - I've just checked my other 162 and it has the Spanish inscription also - so clearly its a usual thing and not related to the likely colonial origins of this 162. Thanks :D

I also checked the motor board and tone arm board for embossed numbers - but there was nothing.


Last edited by mrrgstuff on Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: HMV 162 - new purchase - advice please
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:33 am 
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Victor I
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:59 am
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The metal parts were sent out to India as kits, known as 'Equipments'.

The numbers stamped on the metal part of the horn are Design Registration numbers; I don't know why Spanish ones are included specifically, but they normally are, not only on the horn,but also under the baseplate of the tone-arm. When the model number is stamped on the horn, it's on the wooden part, but as I mentioned before, they seem to have stopped doing this about 1927. I assume it was merely to identify the horn mouth in stock.

The numbers on the metal tags often found doubling as doorstops (but also found inside the case in some models, including the earliest Re-Entrants) are serial numbers, but I don't know how they worked, or what an X means. Sometimes a model is found with both the metal tag and the later celluloid plaque, and the numbers are different. In the late twenties, the numbering system seems to have changed almost annually, and for a time in 1929 was abandoned altogether -- and that's just at Hayes. Heaven alone knows about serial numbers in India, but I think production was certainly high enough to justify a system of some sort. The only thing I do know is that the 1929 London style of label, which used no serial number but added a suffix letter to the model number to indicate its 'mark', for spares ordering purposes, survived into the early thirties in India.


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 Post subject: Re: HMV 162 - new purchase - advice please
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:15 pm 
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Victor III
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Oedipus wrote:
The metal parts were sent out to India as kits, known as 'Equipments'.

The numbers stamped on the metal part of the horn are Design Registration numbers; I don't know why Spanish ones are included specifically, but they normally are, not only on the horn,but also under the baseplate of the tone-arm. When the model number is stamped on the horn, it's on the wooden part, but as I mentioned before, they seem to have stopped doing this about 1927. I assume it was merely to identify the horn mouth in stock.

The numbers on the metal tags often found doubling as doorstops (but also found inside the case in some models, including the earliest Re-Entrants) are serial numbers, but I don't know how they worked, or what an X means. Sometimes a model is found with both the metal tag and the later celluloid plaque, and the numbers are different. In the late twenties, the numbering system seems to have changed almost annually, and for a time in 1929 was abandoned altogether -- and that's just at Hayes. Heaven alone knows about serial numbers in India, but I think production was certainly high enough to justify a system of some sort. The only thing I do know is that the 1929 London style of label, which used no serial number but added a suffix letter to the model number to indicate its 'mark', for spares ordering purposes, survived into the early thirties in India.


Were the numbers stamped on the metal part of the horn (design registration numbers) only for equipments destined for India I wonder ? Or was this generally done otherwise ?
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 Post subject: Re: HMV 162 - new purchase - advice please
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:15 pm 
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Victor V
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I've got the reg des no's on some of my machines, all of which were made in England, so it was definitely generally done regardless of its destination.


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 Post subject: Re: HMV 162 - new purchase - advice please
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:44 am 
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Victor III
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gramophoneshane wrote:
I've got the reg des no's on some of my machines, all of which were made in England, so it was definitely generally done regardless of its destination.


Thank you very much gramophoneshane - very useful information to know.
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 Post subject: Re: HMV 162 - new purchase - advice please
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:16 pm 
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Victor Jr
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Oedipus wrote:
The metal parts were sent out to India as kits, known as 'Equipments'.


Thanks. I had wondered if they had just sent out large crates of parts and let the factory at the other end worry about what to put with what - but it makes more sense if they kitted up the parts first

Oedipus wrote:
When the model number is stamped on the horn, it's on the wooden part, but as I mentioned before, they seem to have stopped doing this about 1927.


I've had a chance to look at both the 162 horns and no obvious model numbers on either (though one has some of of mark on it I can't quite make out). Sounds like both are then 1927 or later

Oedipus wrote:
In the late twenties, the numbering system seems to have changed almost annually, and for a time in 1929 was abandoned altogether -- and that's just at Hayes. Heaven alone knows about serial numbers in India, but I think production was certainly high enough to justify a system of some sort.


I suppose they weren't really thinking about us in the future (!) Presumably whatever they did was good enough for their purposes at the time. It also makes sense to think the Indian factory must have had some sort of system. I've tried googling for pictures of the factory - and found one of the outside which suggests it was a sizable operation.

Thanks for all the info - much appreciated :D

It also occurred to me with all this talk of the use of teak - that I had no idea what teak really looks like. I was surprised to find it was a yellowish wood - however certain parts of this machine do have a yellowish tinge and I attach a photo of some minor damage to the lid what shows a much lighter wood underneath and underneath the spent needle tray. The lid is also noticeably heavier than the mahogany one of the other 162 (though I don't know if that makes it more or less likely to be teak)

I've also had a go at cleaning up the motor a bit - just to get it running. If anybody is interested I've made a YouTube video:
https://youtu.be/j1fDf_0DQA4


Attachments:
spentneedlehole.jpg
spentneedlehole.jpg [ 1.85 MiB | Viewed 452 times ]
hmv162lidcrack.jpg
hmv162lidcrack.jpg [ 618.33 KiB | Viewed 452 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: HMV 162 - new purchase - advice please
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:41 am 
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Victor I
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:59 am
Posts: 130
There are different varieties of teak, as there are of mahogany (indeed, I believe the names are often given to timbers that are botanically not related but happen to look similar). Colours can vary, therefore, as can weight, but teak is generally heavier than mahogany, certainly than the mahogany used in the 20th century. The so-called 'Cuban' mahogany used in the 18th century was much heavier.

Burma teak is pale brown in colour, but some teak is quite pink when freshly cut.


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