Horn elbow identification

[phonodesbois]

This elbow is smaller than the usual elbows for Cie Fr du gramophone or HMV or …Victor so I don’t know on which gramophone it was used.
Usual length (approx. 13cm) and diameter for the horn (approx. 6cm) but on the internal diameter (bracket side) it's much smaller: approx. 3.1cm instead of approx. 3.8cm.
Could someone help?
Thanks, Jeff

[schweg]

It looks as if it would work for either an HMV Baby Monarch, or perhaps a Victor I. The picture is a Baby Monarch.

[phonodesbois]

Thanks for the info. I also looked Victor I pics and the elbow looks similar too.
So, for the time being it will be an orphan elbow!

[jamiegramo]

Hi Jeff,

The 'Victor 1' was generally marketed in Europe as the 'Victor Monarch' (other names in Germany) and is often referred to as the 'Baby Monarch' to differentiate it from the Junior Monarch. Anyway, this Monarch normally has an elbow which on the bracket end is 3cm total diameter, the internal diameter being 2.4cm. You are saying your internal diameter is 3.1cm. The total diameter to fit on the bracket may be more help in locating the actual corresponding bracket.

Junior and Senior Monarchs normally use the same size elbow which is around 4.7cm on the total fitting diameter. The internal diameter being, as you say, 3.8cm.

Your elbow is therefore a bit of a mystery, sort of a size between the baby and the standard size. I have not seen a machine in the UK using this size elbow although I have seen in France 2 brackets which I believe might correspond to it. Never on a complete machine. So I'm hoping someone can show the complete machine.

I am wondering if this size might have been used on the early Victor O. The Victor O's I have seen had the plug-in elbow which is later.

Jamie

[phonodesbois]

Hi Jamie,
Well, considering that « Look for the dog » just indicates that the Victor O was introduced after 1908, I will need the input of a early Victor O owner…
Thanks for your input, Jeff

[jamiegramo]

Hi Jamie,
Well, considering that « Look for the dog » just indicates that the Victor O was introduced after 1908, I will need the input of a early Victor O owner…
Thanks for your input, Jeff

Perhaps post a picture and dimensions in the US 'machines' section. The Victor O started early enough that maybe some of the earliest examples used the pre-plug in fitting. It would be interesting to know what this belongs to especially as the French Company appears to have made use of it.

[Oedipus]

No mystery; it's for an early Intermediate Monarch. This was introduced in 1908 and made for many years, but only in the first few years (perhaps only till 1911) did the elbow have the traditional flange fitting. The horn on this model was 18 x 18 inches, the only Monarch to have this size, the same diameter but slightly shorter than the Junior Monarch horn.

[phonodesbois]

No mystery; it's for an early Intermediate Monarch. This was introduced in 1908 and made for many years, but only in the first few years (perhaps only till 1911) did the elbow have the traditional flange fitting. The horn on this model was 18 x 18 inches, the only Monarch to have this size, the same diameter but slightly shorter than the Junior Monarch horn.

Thanks for the info!
New challenge: I have to find an early Intermediate Monarch!

[Inigo]

This is an ambitious project... To rebuild a complete gramophone starting from the horn elbow only!