PAPER HORN "BALMAIN"

Discussions on Talking Machines of British or European Manufacture
IainW
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Re: PAPER HORN "BALMAIN"

Post by IainW »

Thanks for the feedback Alistair. What I envisaged is a couple of uprights supporting an overhead beam running above the longitudinal axis of the horn. The support at the soundbox end could be located by dowels to the gramophone case to ensure it is set up in the same position each time. If the overhead beam is perforated along its length, (like a giant piece of Meccano or lightweight Dexion) then the position of the suspension hooks can be adjusted to get the best locations to generate the longitudinal movement of the horn at the bulky end and with the least vertical movement at the soundbox end where a spring balance is incorporated.
Once you have fine tuned the set-up and marked the position of each of the hooks it could be relatively simple to take down and reassemble to ensure the same results each time. The whole support apparatus could be designed fold/unfold like a glorified music stand, with the locating dowels ensuring it goes up in the same position each time.
Being new to the forum I am not sure if I have the facility to send you a message directly rather than post here, but I will restrain myself from sending any more flights of fancy until invited!

old country chemist
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Re: PAPER HORN "BALMAIN"

Post by old country chemist »

Hello again, Thanks Iain for the really interesting suggestion. To be honest, if I did not have Adrian Tuddenham on my side regarding the development of this "Neo-Balmain" then I would call on you! As I have not been on the forum for a few days, I will send your really good, to me, ideas to Adrian.
Now, I have just finished renovating the gramophone case and motor to be used. I had to mix up some aniline dyes to try to get the golden oak feeling to the wood. My dear wife had made up an excellent blanking piece for the back of the cabinet where the "hornless" horn cast iron bracket went. I waxed the case with light coloured shoe carnauba wax, and it looks presentable. I bought the case last year for ten quid from the son of one of our past gramophone friends in Somerset. The son also let me have free of charge a mahogany motor board, about the same age as the cabinet, which had a hefty double spring motor that was seized, but when I looked into it, it was just the lack of use for many years, and once dismantled and cleaned in paraffin, and re-oiled and graphite greased (25% graphite in motor grease), it runs, but a little noisily. I have never been keen on those angled governor motors, as I have never heard one that is as quiet as I would like it to be. I re-covered the turntable. My wife had bought, years ago in a cheap shop, a roll of green thick felt. so I used some of that. The turntable is not running exactly level, so Roger has another which I will try when we get together. He is also supplying me with a hand brake for the machine. I weighed the whole gramophone, it is a heavy 11.6 kilograms. We now need to design a table, so that when the horn and it's gliding apparatus plus the gramophone cabinet is on it, that it will not collapse!
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Inigo
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Re: PAPER HORN "BALMAIN"

Post by Inigo »

It looks nice!
Inigo

old country chemist
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Re: PAPER HORN "BALMAIN"

Post by old country chemist »

AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT!!
Hello all, Mr Tuddenham and I have been discussing various ways of how to transport the horn along a set route on the table. Some of the ideas were very similar to Peter Heaths' and John Cook's, where the horn is supported on a wheeled carriage, moving along on rails.
Adrian Tuddenham is trying to get me round to his way of thinking that a completely different way of transporting the horn along would be to actually have the carriage or wheels INSIDE THE HORN. Now this seems very quirky, and to myself, not one for unusual ideas too much, but Adrian says it would be easier to fabricate. He has calculated the weight pressing down of the angled bearings, and their size running on the stainless steel rod which might even be one inch in diameter. Adrian knows that I am hesitant about all this, so he said for me to place a simple diagram on the forum to get some of the forum members comments. The main think that I am not too happy about is if this system falls short of what it is supposed to do properly, and if we have to go for the carriage on wheels principal, then I would have to patch up the horn in a couple of places where the angled support brackets were located. Probably minimal scarring of the virgin horn! It might not be everyone's idea of listening to a record played through the horn with the support mechanism in full view in the horn, but he says that will not at all affect the quality of sound.
Adrian is a very amiable chap, and he will be pleased to know, through me, any comments that some of you may add here.
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CarlosV
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Re: PAPER HORN "BALMAIN"

Post by CarlosV »

old country chemist wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:21 pm It might not be everyone's idea of listening to a record played through the horn with the support mechanism in full view in the horn, but he says that will not at all affect the quality of sound.
Hello Alastair! Good to follow the progress of this work. My view on the proposed solution is that it may affect the sound: the support will act as a baffle and cut off the lower frequencies which are amplified at the end of the bell. The rod may also distort the sound depending on how deep it goes in the horn, just think of a straight trumpet mute. The adjustment of the height may be trick as well with the fixed support at the end. Have you thought of an external support placed at the center of mass of the horn?. Think of a large ring where the horn is held to its perimeter with springs, and the ring swivels on a frame that sits on the train rails already mentioned. The linear movement would be controlled by the rails, the height could be adjusted with different spring lenghts, and the weight on the record could be ajusted with a sliding ring near the soundbox. Just an alternative idea, hope it helps. I can try to draw it if it interests you.

IainW
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Re: PAPER HORN "BALMAIN"

Post by IainW »

A very ingenious idea Alastair. I have no idea how the sound reproduction would be affected, but I think the support arrangement and rod would have to be really robust as any slight downward deflection of the rod would result in the horn effectively having to be pushed uphill.
Perhaps any support rails ( be they internal or below the horn) could be fitted with a micrometer adjustment to be able to tilt them slightly so that gravity is employed to assist in the movement of the horn along the rail.
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Inigo
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Re: PAPER HORN "BALMAIN"

Post by Inigo »

What is seen in the drawings don't represent any means to prevent the horn from tilting around its axis! The slightest unbalance would make it rotate. A device to avoid this should be added. Implicitly, the system using two parallel tracks avoids that.

EDITED.
Last edited by Inigo on Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Inigo

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physicist
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Re: PAPER HORN "BALMAIN"

Post by physicist »

Inigo wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:23 am What is seen in the drawings don't represent any means to prevent the horn from tilting around its axis! The slightest unbalance would make it rotate.
The extra mass of the bracket, being above the centre, would accelerate this rotation if it were to start. If this proves to be a problem, the simplest solution is to raise the circular track rod just above the centre of gravity of the horn. If less than 50% of the total mass (including the bracket) is above the track rod, it would then not want to rotate.

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Re: PAPER HORN "BALMAIN"

Post by HMVDevotee »

Just another point of physics... I wonder what the linear inertia of the entire horn assembly, including the added mass of whatever mounting devices are attached to the horn, will be as compared with the mass and frictional resistance offered by conventional tone arm assemblies. While some of my 78s have holes that appear to be dead-center, many are not. The resulting oscillation will require the record's groove to accelerate the horn's assembled mass in two directions with every rotation, however microscopic those motions may be. Any mounting solution should consider weight as well as frictional resistance.

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Re: PAPER HORN "BALMAIN"

Post by HMVDevotee »

Sorry for the redundancy above... It's been so long since I read this thread, I forgot that the inertia issue was already addressed.

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