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 Post subject: Re: PAPER HORN
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:59 pm 
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Victor II
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:31 pm
Posts: 220
Inigo wrote:
But the backplates he's made have a different back collar, as it's made so it fits directly in the tonearm, with 'no need of that perishable rubber collar'...!


I was aware that the Street backplate might effect the sound but it never dawned on me that it might effect record wear. Silly me!
This gives me pause for thought especially as it is backed up by the link which Soundgen provides where similar caveats are aired. The lightness of the Street backplate might mitigate this but certainly not eliminate it.
Maybe its time to have some made up with provision for more damping.
The search for perfection never ends does it?


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 Post subject: Re: PAPER HORN
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 12:49 pm 
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Victor IV
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Keep'em well oiled
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:51 am
Posts: 1003
Location: Madrid, Spain
Deleted, FATAL ERROR.
Inigo


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 Post subject: Re: PAPER HORN
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:49 pm 
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Victor I
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:06 pm
Posts: 130
Attachment:
nipper and EMG etc 001.jpg
nipper and EMG etc 001.jpg [ 355.18 KiB | Viewed 198 times ]
I have put the paper horn I am making, complete on it's former in the conservatory on October 2nd.to dry. When I am in there, sometimes the sun is quite strong, and so, I give the horn a quarter of a turn to keep the heat from drying one area out too quickly.
Has anyone the slightest idea about how long it will take to dry...?
I started putting the first layer of sugar paper on the horn early August, and finished the 32nd layer near end of September, leaving the layers to dry for 24 hours before applying another coat of sugar bag paper.
Mr Frank James, the EMG Guru,besides supplying me with most of the sugar paper, also let me have some "finishing papers" to cover the horn when completely dry-if it ever comes off the former! I may only have enough of this special mid brown grain effect papers to coat either the outside or the inside. I thought maybe to coat with the paper, the outside, and then using a suitable rich brown eggshell (sheen) finish of good quality emulsion paint, give it 2 or 3 coats on the inside of the horn. Using sheen finish will ensure that there are no reflectivity issues with the sound emanating from the horn hopefully.


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 Post subject: Re: PAPER HORN
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:47 pm 
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Victor IV
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Keep'em well oiled
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:51 am
Posts: 1003
Location: Madrid, Spain
Correct me if I'm wrong... But haven't we read somewhere in this forum (Graham...?) or in the EMG/Expert literature, that a too crystal shiny finish inside the horn may spoil the sound somehow, and that certain grade of soft rugosity is needed instead? I would apply a paper-like finish inside, or make tests before applying something that cannot be removed later (or re-covered in a different texture)...
We've also known from Graham's experiments with his modern horns, that the border of the horn mouth must be perfectly regular to obtain that three-dimensional quality of the sound.
Inigo


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 Post subject: Re: PAPER HORN
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 7:18 pm 
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Victor IV
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Buyer of broken things
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:10 pm
Posts: 1332
Location: North Shields, UK
old country chemist wrote:
Attachment:
The attachment nipper and EMG etc 001.jpg is no longer available
I have put the paper horn I am making, complete on it's former in the conservatory on October 2nd.to dry. When I am in there, sometimes the sun is quite strong, and so, I give the horn a quarter of a turn to keep the heat from drying one area out too quickly.
Has anyone the slightest idea about how long it will take to dry...?
I started putting the first layer of sugar paper on the horn early August, and finished the 32nd layer near end of September, leaving the layers to dry for 24 hours before applying another coat of sugar bag paper.
Mr Frank James, the EMG Guru,besides supplying me with most of the sugar paper, also let me have some "finishing papers" to cover the horn when completely dry-if it ever comes off the former! I may only have enough of this special mid brown grain effect papers to coat either the outside or the inside. I thought maybe to coat with the paper, the outside, and then using a suitable rich brown eggshell (sheen) finish of good quality emulsion paint, give it 2 or 3 coats on the inside of the horn. Using sheen finish will ensure that there are no reflectivity issues with the sound emanating from the horn hopefully.


Alastair, you seem to have accidentally drawn my living room :lol:

Attachment:
1786D31A-487B-4D01-9D8E-440014561540.jpeg
1786D31A-487B-4D01-9D8E-440014561540.jpeg [ 1.03 MiB | Viewed 183 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: PAPER HORN
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:45 pm 
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Victor I
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:06 pm
Posts: 130
Hello Alex. Good to hear from you.I must have had one of my "visions" when I inadvertently drew your living room-albeit without the lovely guitars that I am told you are making. Good to see an Expert and an EMG in the room, which I imagine is a good size, as the instruments cannot give their full potential in a small room. I hear you are "tuning" soundboxes-did you learn that from tuning guitars?=joking aside.


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 Post subject: Re: PAPER HORN
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:26 pm 
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Victor III
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Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:57 am
Posts: 735
Location: Hampshire, England.
John Cook, the skilled maker of the red-horned Balmain-design Wilson horn gramophone visited my home on Friday and we spent many enjoyable hours comparing the audio output of three external-horn gramophones---Balmain, EMG Mk VIII and EMG Xb Oversize. It occurred to us that nobody has yet ever had the public opportunity of hearing such comparisons as, so far as is known, no original Balmain gramophone exists.

During the course of this thread there have been a few doubts expressed as to whether the Balmain gramophone is really a practical proposition and would work in a satisfactory fashion. I can confirm that it performs brilliantly in all required respects---plays perfectly with absolutely no detectable increased record wear---but does, of course, need to be set up very carefully. As mentioned previously, it is vital that the track/carriage is absolutely level in both planes. It is also extremely important that the construction dimensions result in the correct needle pressure and that the rolling track friction is as low as possible. In this case John has allowed generous tolerances in order to minimise friction and allow for irregularities in records etc. Different soundboxes were tested which resulted in slightly different lateral needle positions, thus adjustments (allowed for in the design) had to be made each time the soundbox type was changed so as to ensure correct tracking to the centre of the motor spindle. Exhibition, HMV and EMG soundboxes were assessed with the latter proving the most satisfactory.

For those wishing to make their own, John has the following initial recommendations and is also more than happy to answer questions by email/telephone etc upon request. There is much to think about before embarking but his first recommendation is to decide upon the length of (Wilson-type) horn. This decision is not easy and reference should probably be made to Peter Heath’s excellent PDF attachments earlier in this thread. It would then be wise to make the bare horn and soundbox attachment before anything else so that weight and point-of-balance can be exactly determined. John’s horn weighs 3.2 kg (7.05 lbs). Possessing this definite item, calculations can then be made in respect of track length and horn pivot point. After this, he suggests making a cheap softwood construction to prove the design before going to the trouble of finely-finished hardwood.

John has used an HMV 32 double-spring motor and the case contains a heavy cast-iron weight to act as a counterbalance. Were he to do the job again, he would construct the case to allow removal of the counterweight without having to lift the motor board.

Here are the performance videos :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owX7Pnqm-Nw Balmain-design gramophone in action---close up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z16o39aT_UQ Balmain-design gramophone comparison demonstration. Steel needle. BALMAIN.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYbKo9ufA4w Balmain-design gramophone comparison demonstration. Steel needle. EMG Mk VIII.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLfxyVOWV_8 Balmain-design gramophone comparison demonstration. Steel needle. EMG Xb Oversize.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E16t5Ne4JI Balmain-design gramophone comparison demonstration. Thorn needle. BALMAIN.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRyUHCo01ok Balmain-design gramophone comparison demonstration. Thorn needle. EMG Mk VIII.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuJ8uZq7PEs Balmain-design gramophone comparison demonstration. Thorn needle. EMG Xb Oversize.

Followed by detailed photos :


Attachments:
File comment: EMG Mk VIII, Balmain, EMG Xb Oversize.
DSC06546.JPG
DSC06546.JPG [ 4.11 MiB | Viewed 115 times ]
File comment: EMG Mk VIII, Balmain, EMG Xb Oversize.
DSC06547.JPG
DSC06547.JPG [ 4.02 MiB | Viewed 115 times ]
File comment: With owner/constructor John Cook.
DSC06549.JPG
DSC06549.JPG [ 4.05 MiB | Viewed 115 times ]
File comment: With two original Wilson horns (early and late).
DSC06554.JPG
DSC06554.JPG [ 4.11 MiB | Viewed 115 times ]
File comment: Carriage---top view.
DSC06555.JPG
DSC06555.JPG [ 5.21 MiB | Viewed 115 times ]
File comment: Carriage removed to show wheels and lower track.
DSC06559.JPG
DSC06559.JPG [ 3.63 MiB | Viewed 115 times ]
File comment: Underside of carriage to show upper track.
DSC06560.JPG
DSC06560.JPG [ 3.91 MiB | Viewed 115 times ]
File comment: Joint to motor/turntable case---demountable by lifting and sliding.
DSC06561.JPG
DSC06561.JPG [ 3.7 MiB | Viewed 115 times ]
File comment: Carriage and case with creator and owner.
DSC06563.JPG
DSC06563.JPG [ 3.46 MiB | Viewed 115 times ]
File comment: HMV 32 motor and cast-iron counterweight.
DSC06567.JPG
DSC06567.JPG [ 3.74 MiB | Viewed 115 times ]


Last edited by emgcr on Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: PAPER HORN
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:37 pm 
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Victor III
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Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:57 am
Posts: 735
Location: Hampshire, England.
More photos :


Attachments:
File comment: Horn pivot showing adjuster.
DSC06570.JPG
DSC06570.JPG [ 2.8 MiB | Viewed 114 times ]
File comment: Underside of horn lateral adjustable restraint.
DSC06572.JPG
DSC06572.JPG [ 3.6 MiB | Viewed 114 times ]
File comment: Top of horn lateral adjustable restraint.
DSC06574.JPG
DSC06574.JPG [ 3.77 MiB | Viewed 114 times ]
File comment: Lateral horn restraint pivot details.
DSC06576.JPG
DSC06576.JPG [ 3.33 MiB | Viewed 114 times ]
File comment: Rail bearing of lateral horn restraint.
DSC06579.JPG
DSC06579.JPG [ 3.19 MiB | Viewed 114 times ]
File comment: Soundbox connection.
DSC06581.JPG
DSC06581.JPG [ 3.52 MiB | Viewed 114 times ]
File comment: Horn internal connection to pivot block.
DSC06583.JPG
DSC06583.JPG [ 3.2 MiB | Viewed 114 times ]
File comment: Horn pivot detail allowing easy demounting.
DSC06584.JPG
DSC06584.JPG [ 2.84 MiB | Viewed 114 times ]
File comment: Three-quarter front view of whole assembly.
DSC06589.JPG
DSC06589.JPG [ 4.15 MiB | Viewed 114 times ]
File comment: Whole track support which hooks into rear of case internally.
DSC06593.JPG
DSC06593.JPG [ 3.86 MiB | Viewed 114 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: PAPER HORN
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:05 pm 
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Victor IV
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 6:18 am
Posts: 1158
Location: Luxembourg
The comparison is very impressive! the videos do not allow to make a conclusion about the best reproduction, but it is evident that the Balmain reaches a comparable level of performance to the EMGs. Very good craftmanship as well, congratulations to the designer!


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 Post subject: Re: PAPER HORN
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:13 pm 
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Victor III
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Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:57 am
Posts: 735
Location: Hampshire, England.
Absolutely, the sound and construction are first class and John is to be congratulated on a superb job.


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