Horn gramophones to identify and discuss

[nostalgia]

Taking a needed brake (this evening) from the Columbia Plano Reflex tone arm " brain drain", I thought it could be interesting to show this horn gramophone that is up for sale. Sold as a Garrard horn gramophone, it could be interesting to hear what you English horn gramophone experts and aficionados can say about this machine.

If I understand it right Garrard at this time only made motors for manufacturers of gramophones, and did not manufacture their own machines, and if I also remember correctly from past threads, the Garrard 30 motor is a two spring motor. But there is also my knowledge stopping about this gramophone..

[CarlosV]

The turntable and the speed indicator look like coming from a portable. It could be genuine, but I'm suspicious about machines with glass windows, other than old Zonophones and some Swiss ones.

[gramophoneshane]

I've never seen a genuine external horn machine with a Garrard motor (except EMG/Expert) in over 40 yrs of collecting, and the crank is nothing like what I'd expect on a Garrard motored machine either.

I doubt a straight tonearm like this was used at such a late date (if the motor is anything to go by) as well, and I'm sure anything originally made with a glass or mirrored panel would have had bevelled edges too.

I think the motor board has been veneered looking at the front right corner, which would explain its lack of finish and perhaps pre-existing holes indicating a motor change.
The cabinet design appears to be very much in line with the Swiss reproductions from the 1960/70's.

[epigramophone]

The last Columbia external horn models had Garrard motors. My 1929 Model 2a, which I regret selling, had the No.50 large single spring motor.

[gramophoneshane]

Thanks for that information and picture.
To be honest, I never knew Columbia was still offering horn gramophones so late in the game. I'd actually forgotten all about Columbia using Garrard motors, although the limited amount of Columbia's I've had experience with were all stamped as Columbia motors by Garrard, but I guess by this late in the game they no longer bothered.
It still retains the classic Columbia shape knob on the crank though I see.

Can I ask what reproducer and type of tonearm was used on these late Columbia horn machines?
Did they stick to the one piece tonearm similar to what you find on the earlier BI type machines throughout production of horn machines over the years?

I can't imagine they sold very well when their only real competition would have been the HMV Model 32.

[Phono48]

Look at the arm rest (top right of the motor board). It bears more than a passing resemblance to the one usually found on the Columbia 112A portable machine, albeit bent into a new shape. As said before, the winding handle is wrong for a Columbia, so my vote is for it being a made-up machine.

[nostalgia]

Very interesting observations! Without saying it in the first post, I remembered that Garrard made the motors for the Columbia horn gramophones, so I basically was curious about possible connections to Columbia, if they existed on this machine.
If the winding handle is wrong for a Columbia, it also means it is wrong for the Garrard motor, so a substitutional handle must has been found. And yes, Barry, I see the similarities to the tone arm rest on a 112A portable, gazing into the kitchen where the 112a is standing on the kitchen table after yesterday's Plano Reflex work.
I did not know that reproduction cabinets were made in Switzerland in the 1960s and 1970s, that was quite shocking information in itself.
And without twisting the knife, Roger, I understand well you regret selling that Columbia horn gramophone, it is a real beauty !

[gramophoneshane]

I did not know that reproduction cabinets were made in Switzerland in the 1960s and 1970s, that was quite shocking information in itself.

Well that's what I was told years ago by a seasoned collector, although I've never seen any actual proof of his story.
Most of the machines with this same cabinet that I've seen, used Thorens running gear and back bracket, but usually have a small brass horn, and a 2 piece brass elbow that was soldered together.
I was told they were made from left over parts from the Thorens factory in the late 60's, in very low quality cabinets.

A friend of mine actually bought on a couple weeks ago, but it has a German motor, which kind of makes me question the Thorens story, so I'm starting to think they were just a generic frankenphones that appears to have been made in fairly high numbers and distributed around the world.

[nostalgia]

And now I have to ask, was it "in the good old days" ever manufactured horn gramophones with sharp angle elbow like on this machine? With my very limited knowledge about horn gramophones, I have so far only seen this sharp angle, on crapophones.

[gramophoneshane]

I'm not aware of any originals that used anything but the one piece curved elbow.