Horn gramophones to identify and discuss

Discussions on Talking Machines of British or European Manufacture
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Curt A
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Re: Horn gramophones to identify and discuss

Post by Curt A »

I'm thinking that you could probably double your money, if you would just go ahead and list it here... :roll: :mrgreen: ;)
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Re: Horn gramophones to identify and discuss

Post by gramophoneshane »

I think the back bracket on this machine is a Thorens.
It's the same bracket that's reproduced in aluminium for most Indian crapophones.
Yours however appears to be a genuine original.
It's also worth noting that not all Swiss and German machines followed the "needle lines up with the spindle" rule like most HMV/Victor machines did, so if your needle falls short of the spindle by ½"-1', it may well be how it was originally sold.

Is there any chance you could post a picture of the back of the cabinet with the back bracket removed?
Perhaps seeing all the holes and any witness marks in the timber or finish may give a clue to what different back bracket was originally used, or if this one has simply been moved for some reason?

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Re: Horn gramophones to identify and discuss

Post by nostalgia »

Thank you for suggestions, Shane. I will remove the back bracket, and take some photos for witness marks.
I checked the tonearm length before buying the gramophone, but I will also take some more photos of the backet, when it is attached to the machine,
so we can see the distance between the needle and the spindle.
I am always keen on trying to solve mysteries too :geek:

Curt, doubling the money..that is tempting,,,or maybe not :mrgreen:

nostalgia
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Re: Horn gramophones to identify and discuss

Post by nostalgia »

I have taken some additional photos of this cabinet, so now you can voice your opinions, if you want. :geek:
In my world this is a back bracket belonging to a small horn gramophone, and we can also see the distance between the spindle and the soundbox.
There is the typical extra hole drilled on the back side to fit the new bracket.
And..regarding the wood...I leave it to your opinions, since I am absolutely no expert on this, to me however..it does not look like the top has been re veneered.
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jamiegramo
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Re: Horn gramophones to identify and discuss

Post by jamiegramo »

The underside of the motor board is looking good! It looks original and there are no redundant holes being covered by the rosewood veneer on top. I think there’s no reason to assume that this veneer hasn’t been there since new. I think to add detail to a good machine and its colour appears to match the mahogany well.

Perhaps you could use the back bracket to trade for one of a more suitable size?

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Re: Horn gramophones to identify and discuss

Post by nostalgia »

Thanks for the input, Jamie. Trading gramophone parts is unfortunately difficult in my area, since collectors are hard to find here, but I have become friends with one big collector, and will show him the cabinet in a week or two. Or I will maybe need start looking for a small Thorens cabinet with an oversized back bracket, that will leave me with two complete gramophones after swapping the brackets on the two Thorens machines :lol:
Actually, there are big size horn gramophones for sale up here that are sold at good prices, but if they are Thorens or not are of course harder to decide...but going after a big size Swiss/German back bracket would maybe be sufficient.

I don't really know if Thorens/Paillard etc made their own back brackets or not, of if they came from a supplier of metal parts who sold to different gramophone manufacturers?

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Re: Horn gramophones to identify and discuss

Post by epigramophone »

Thorens and Paillard (family owned companies which were connected by marriage) both sold components to the gramophone trade, as did Beka, so it is likely that they were indeed manufacturers.

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Re: Horn gramophones to identify and discuss

Post by Inigo »

They sold all types of hardware, you could assembly a complete gramophone, adding only the woodwork. Watch their catalogues of parts at https://www.graphonogram.com/4-documentation.html
That's why many off-brand machines in Europe carried Thorens hardware...
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nostalgia
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Re: Horn gramophones to identify and discuss

Post by nostalgia »

The last two summers I have been lucky to find a horn gramophone out of the ordinary. Two years ago it was a DGAG Senior Monarch in pristine condition, last year I was able to put together a HMV model 25, after the unlikely event happened that two scrappy model 25 machines with different big problems turned up during a few weeks, that together made a complete shiny machine.
I was some days ago pondering on if also this year a unique machine would turn up, since this time of the year people often tidy their closets and basements in my area. When the Thorens cabinet turned up last week, I was thinking..well here it is, this is this summers find. But...it wasn't...

Yesterday this machine was put up for sale ( a set low price) and I acted on the spot, and made the necessary call, and immediately took a 30 minute drive to see the machine. It was a nervous car trip, since I knew someone else could have made a call to the seller, and overbid me on the set price during my short car trip, even if the price was set.
I however arrived on time, followed the seller into an old but very dry locked basement storage locker in a deserted block of flats, and there...on the floor in the corner, was this machine, a Pathéphone No. 13. It had been stored in this basement the last 40 years! Finally, a complete Pathéphone after opening several threads here during the last two years having believed I had possibly found a Pathéphone.

When I saw this machine, I immediately knew this was the real deal! The horn was found in another corner of the basement, also intact, and with no dents, and a nice green color, with shades of dark green and gold. This is no doubt the find of the year for me, but the machine also has some challenges.

1. A missing windig handle, but that is not the biggest problem..
2. A wooden rosette missing on the motor board, but that can be remade..
3. The BIG challenge, missing metal and broken off parts around the area where the horn is connected to the elbow of the machine,,

I have asked the seller to look out for this part when they tidy the basement in the next weeks, but I have small hopes. I think this part broke off many years ago.
I was able to find a photo of a Pathéphone no 13 taken from a youtube video, it shows the area where my machine has a challenge. When looking at the photo, I ask myself if this machine potentially had a similar weakness, and a bracket has been made in later years to support the weight of the horn? This part seem to be made of a different metal. Maybe this is the kind of metal work I also need to be performed on my machine...

I add some photos, before and after a general clean up.

The soundbox is not marked Pathé but the soundbox can be turned in different directions on the tonearm.
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Inigo
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Re: Horn gramophones to identify and discuss

Post by Inigo »

If the price is reasonable, I would go for it. At the worst you'd have to look for a new support (maybe ready in France) or take a mold and cast a new one.
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