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 Post subject: Front Wind 101 Question
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:00 am 
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Victor Jr
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:21 pm
Posts: 5
Some years ago I saw a tatty HMV 101 on Ebay (photo 1). It was odd in that it appeared to be a green front wind model and I had never seen any mention of coloured front wind models. I assumed it had been overpainted or otherwise modified so put in a low bid given its apparently poor condition and won it. When it arrived it was indeed in poor condition, having been stored in damp conditions, the lid was soggy and falling apart and most of the fittings were rusty. However, the cloth was green and appeared to be a good and fairly old job so I restored it as best I could (Photos 4& 5). During the restoration the following points were noted:

1. It has the polished wood motor board, black horn and brown felt of a normal black front wind model.
2. It is not a side wind case modified to look like a front wind case, but it had the holes for the earlier pattern of carrying handle plugged before the green cloth and Pakawa were handle fitted (photo 2).
3. The cloth is clearly old and has been on the machine for many years. The cloth under corners shows the original colour was lighter and brighter and it seems to be a good match for genuine green 101s (photo 3).
4. The pin striping looks to have been hand applied as the corners are not as sharp as my other 101s.
5. The record carrier has the later, smaller transfer (1930 onwards?).
6. The bottom corners are plain with no rubber inserts, but I have a model 100 which has the same arrangement.
7. There is no serial number plate.

Having looked at this machine again recently, my questions are:

1. Has anyone seen any other coloured front wind 101's?
2. Did early front wind 101's use plain case corners without rubber inserts on the base?
3. I thought it might be a well executed homemade job by someone who wanted to upgrade their early 101 when the colour models came out. If so, I expect leather cloth was readily available but did HMV make parts like the record carrier and Pakawa handles available to their customers?
4. Why would someone go the trouble of changing the cloth. carrying handle and record carrier but leave the motor board, horn paint and turntable felt untouched?
5. Is it a later fake?


Attachments:
Green 101 Photo 1.JPG
Green 101 Photo 1.JPG [ 44.66 KiB | Viewed 392 times ]
Green 101 Photo 2.jpg
Green 101 Photo 2.jpg [ 617.15 KiB | Viewed 392 times ]
Green 101 Photo 3.jpg
Green 101 Photo 3.jpg [ 804.54 KiB | Viewed 392 times ]
Green 101 Photo 4.jpg
Green 101 Photo 4.jpg [ 1.25 MiB | Viewed 392 times ]
Green 101 Photo 5.jpg
Green 101 Photo 5.jpg [ 1.48 MiB | Viewed 392 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Front Wind 101 Question
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:19 am 
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Victor III
Keep winding up
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:58 am
Posts: 731
Location: My gramophone repair room
Myself I have never seen a green front wind 101, and your questions are very relevant, and also the photos you have uploaded are very revealing.
I can't wait to hear what our very experienced HMV experts will say about this machine!


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 Post subject: Re: Front Wind 101 Question
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:06 am 
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Victor III
Keep winding up
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:58 am
Posts: 731
Location: My gramophone repair room
I am bumping this thread, so hopefully our new member can get some feedbacks on this interesting topic.


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 Post subject: Re: Front Wind 101 Question
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:23 am 
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Victor III
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 2:38 pm
Posts: 944
Location: United Kingdom
There's something very odd about this machine! The transfer in the lid wasn't introduced until 1928, long after the front-winding 101 had been discontinued. Likewise the "Pakawa" carrying handle also belongs to later models. I initially thought someone had re-covered the case and replaced the record tray in the lid, but that still doesn't explain the Pakawa handle. The only thing I can suggest is that the case has been modified by filling in the side winding hole, drilling a new front hole and then re-covering the case, but even that sounds a bit far-fetched!! I remain puzzled........

Barry


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 Post subject: Re: Front Wind 101 Question
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:21 pm 
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Victor V
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 2:04 pm
Posts: 2491
There are two slight but perhaps significant witness marks which may suggest an alteration from a side wind machine


Attachments:
aGreen 101 Photo 2.jpg
aGreen 101 Photo 2.jpg [ 25.5 KiB | Viewed 313 times ]
aGreen 101 Photo 5.jpg
aGreen 101 Photo 5.jpg [ 34 KiB | Viewed 313 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Front Wind 101 Question
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:51 pm 
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Victor Jr
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:21 pm
Posts: 5
Interesting observations, however I don't think those marks represent an alteration to a side wind machine. The first one is in the roughly the right place but looking at the case close up there is no sign of a patch under the cloth and certainly no patch in the cloth. The second mark is too far forward to be the winder and is a crush mark where something has caught it. The other thing that had not occurred to me previously is that if was a side wind case they would have had to patch over the needle drawer as well. I added the photo below comparing it with a Blue Crocodile side wind 101 for comparison and it shows that the dovetail joint fingers on the corner are all there. The photo also shows one of the plugs for the original carry handle holes sticking up under the nearest Pakawa handle clip which seems a bit poorly done given the effort required to make this otherwise. All very odd.


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Photo6.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: Front Wind 101 Question
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:10 pm 
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Victor III
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 2:38 pm
Posts: 944
Location: United Kingdom
I don't know whether the same applies to the 101 model, but I have a "spares" leaflet for the 102, showing that every single part, right down to the tiniest of screws was numbered and available to order, including case coverings, so maybe HMV did supply the covering and all the other parts to upgrade a black model to a green one. I understand that HMV would also make "one-off" versions to special order. Having said that, why,if a customer was going to go to these extremes, would they not have completed the job by getting the correct internal fittings (turntable felt, internal horn and covered motor board)?

Barry


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 Post subject: Re: Front Wind 101 Question
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:32 pm 
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Victor V
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 2:04 pm
Posts: 2491
perhaps someone in the factory stole it one piece at a time :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb9F2DT8iEQ


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 Post subject: Re: Front Wind 101 Question
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:01 pm 
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Victor I
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:59 am
Posts: 135
I can only quote the response of an old friend of mine to an unanswerable question, "Neither do I, too."


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