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 Post subject: HMV Model VIa Table Grand
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:37 am 
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Victor III
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Location: My gramophone repair room
I already have a HMV 109 and 103 table grand, that I have problems finding a space for in my house, and the 103 is already stored in my rented storage room for the time being, and because of it my desire to buy another HMV table grand has not been high on my wishing list.

But when spotting this machine for sale a few days ago, I decided to rescue it, after checking it up in the HMG book ( Proudfoot & Oakley). Without using the book I would have no chance to identify it too, since it because of the early type Exhibition soundbox and some distinct other features, obviously was not one of the later table grands. I decided to open this thread, since I could not find any information about this model on the forum, and also have a look at what it looks like in detail. Another reason to save it, is of course because these early table grands were manufactured in much smaller numbers than the later table grand. According to the HMG book, this particular model reached a total of 1583 oak cabinets ( 708 in mahogany).

After carefully checking the book, I believe it must be a Model VIa, pictured on page 175 in the book, and according to the same book manufactured as early as 1912-1915. It also means it is from the pre Soundbox No 4 period. The Nipper on a Plinth decal, also corresponds with this period. I will refrain from deciding the correct letter code for this machine, even if obviously must contain a T for table grand. In the book three letter codes are mentioned for this model: (D.U, T.C.O and T.C.M) Maybe this is a T.C.O since it obviouosly has a dark oak case. ( I don't know what a D.U code stands for)It is actually alsio said in the same book that the Model 6 grand is the model with the most complex history of all...

I am uploading quite some photos. As we can see the previous owner have installed a self made tone arm rest inside the gramophone, and also drilled a hole through the back side of the cabinet, close to the tone arm. I have no idea why this hole was ever made, but it will not be too difficult to amend. There are also two wooden strips missing, one at the left side, and one at the back side of the cabinet, but this should also be not too difficult to substitute.

Apart from this the machine looks good thinking of it's age. We can see that on this early model the motor board is not fixed to the cabinet with screws, the motor board can simply be lifted out. According to the HMG book, the motor is a double 1-inch spring spiral drive. I have so far been unable to remove the winding handle from the machine, it does not react to rather hard anti clockwise hits that would normally loosen a handle. It obviously is a threaded winding handle, so I will try to apply some rust remover so I hopefully will be able to remove it without destroying parts of the motor.

In the HMG book we can not see photos of the motor board of the machine, but the color of the motor board and lid interior puzzles me a bit, since it obviously not is dark oak as the rest of the outer cabinet.

Another thing that puzzles me is the three small drilled holes on the left side of the tone arm base. I don't want to upload the copyrighted photo from the HMG book, but I don't recognize any components on this particular spot on the picture in the book, and also it is not a normal position for a needle container. Maybe it has been another self made needle box base from the earlier inventive owner, with or without a connection to the drilled hole in the cabinet behind the tonearm !

I actually can't find any needle box at all under the cover of this early HMV table grand. I tend to believe this model was not equipped with a needle box, since the model VIII, the big brother of this Model VIa, also was not equipped with a needle container ( again witnessed from HMG photos)

Further comments, corrections, add ons, advices or suggestions are of course, as always, very welcome!

PS. Pay attention to the brake, according to the HMG book this is a Dennison brake, myself I do not have this brake on any other of my HMV machines.


Attachments:
HMV Model VIa (1).jpg
HMV Model VIa (1).jpg [ 355.15 KiB | Viewed 390 times ]
HMV Model VIa (2).jpg
HMV Model VIa (2).jpg [ 366.9 KiB | Viewed 390 times ]
HMV Model VIa (3).jpg
HMV Model VIa (3).jpg [ 319.93 KiB | Viewed 390 times ]
HMV Model VIa (4).jpg
HMV Model VIa (4).jpg [ 224.46 KiB | Viewed 390 times ]
HMV Model VIa (5).jpg
HMV Model VIa (5).jpg [ 270.34 KiB | Viewed 390 times ]
HMV Model VIa (6).jpg
HMV Model VIa (6).jpg [ 285.7 KiB | Viewed 390 times ]
HMV Model VIa (7).jpg
HMV Model VIa (7).jpg [ 297.33 KiB | Viewed 390 times ]
HMV Model VIa (8).jpg
HMV Model VIa (8).jpg [ 283.77 KiB | Viewed 390 times ]
HMV Model VIa (9).jpg
HMV Model VIa (9).jpg [ 230.77 KiB | Viewed 390 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: HMV Model VIa Table Grand
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:05 am 
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Victor III
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 2:38 pm
Posts: 942
Location: United Kingdom
I would hazard a guess that at some time a previous owner has fixed an electric arm to this machine, hence the holes and the home-made arm rest, then later removed it. Seems to make sense, no?

Barry


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 Post subject: Re: HMV Model VIa Table Grand
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:21 am 
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Victor V
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 2:04 pm
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It is pre 1914 as it has a made in USA exhibition , with regard to the winding handle I would suggest you release the motor from the motor board( undo the three motor board screws and remove the brake ), you can then see why the handle doesn't unwind :D


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 Post subject: Re: HMV Model VIa Table Grand
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:39 am 
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Victor VI
An analogue relic trapped in a digital world.
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:21 pm
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Location: The Somerset Levels, UK.
Phono48 wrote:
I would hazard a guess that at some time a previous owner has fixed an electric arm to this machine, hence the holes and the home-made arm rest, then later removed it. Seems to make sense, no?

Barry


That would also explain the hole at the rear, through which the wiring connecting the pickup to a radio would have passed.


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 Post subject: Re: HMV Model VIa Table Grand
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:52 am 
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Victor III
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Location: My gramophone repair room
I think you nailed this, Barry!
The home made tone arm rest does not fit the original tone arm.

Thanks for the advice too, Soundgen. I also felt trying this was the next step if rust remover inside the escutcheon doesn't help.

What do you think about the motor board and inner lid wood? What kind of wood is it?


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 Post subject: Re: HMV Model VIa Table Grand
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:50 am 
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VTLA
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nostalgia wrote:
...

What do you think about the motor board and inner lid wood? What kind of wood is it?


The wood of the inner lid is clearly quarter-sawn oak, also called tiger oak by some. The motor board and surroundings also look like oak, except for that middle square piece. It could either be a cheaper cut of oak, or some secondary wood, because it would normally not be visible if the turntable is installed.
I think the brake also suggests pre-1914, because at least in the US this type of brake was relatively short-lived between 1912 and 1914.
Shouldn't be too hard to save this interesting machine.

Andreas


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 Post subject: Re: HMV Model VIa Table Grand
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:59 am 
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Victor II
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So many audio formats, so little listening time!
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:49 pm
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Location: Wiltshire, UK
It looks to be very similar to mine which I featured in this "featured phonograph" thread back in 2009

https://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1521

This was my very first gramophone that I bought in the early 1980's - the seller decal was what specifically drew my attention together with that fabulous oak grain.

Mine is also much darker on the outside than inside the cabinet - product of dirt build up together with the action of UV light I suppose- i've never cleaned the outside and have basically just left that as is. It is odd that your motor board isn't screwed down and no evidence of there ever being any screw holes even. I guess the winding handle is holding it in place.

Nice machine through - Not the greatest sound as the horn basically has the motor sat in the middle of it. But still not bad considering.
I am interested in all forms of audio media including: gramophones, phonographs, wire recorders, the tefifon, reel to reel tapes, radiograms and radios.


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 Post subject: Re: HMV Model VIa Table Grand
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:28 am 
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Victor III
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Location: My gramophone repair room
Phonosandradios, you have a nice machine, but I believe it is a later model. We can see your machine has a later Exhibition soundbox (HMV)
and also the later and more well known screws holding the motor board, and also a needle container that is not included on my machine.
I am not at home and close to the HMG book, so I can't check the book to find the correct model number for your machine right now.


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 Post subject: Re: HMV Model VIa Table Grand
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:56 am 
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Victor II
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So many audio formats, so little listening time!
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:49 pm
Posts: 292
Location: Wiltshire, UK
This was the view on the model number and date of manufacture at the time I posted it originally:

"It is a Model 6b HMV. The "b" was dropped when they did away with the motor-in-horn. At first I thought that the door hinges and knobs were not original, but in fact they are original - I've never seen one of these machines in real life but pictures and technical detail are available in "His Master's Gramophone" which is a very useful book to have. Strangely yours has the two-piece Model 6 winding handle, but I suppose that it fits. Your machine was manufactured between March and November 1915 during WW I. Due to scarcity and poor supply of some parts some Model 6s were minor variants."
I am interested in all forms of audio media including: gramophones, phonographs, wire recorders, the tefifon, reel to reel tapes, radiograms and radios.


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 Post subject: Re: HMV Model VIa Table Grand
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:34 pm 
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Victor III
Keep winding up
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:58 am
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Location: My gramophone repair room
I am not in the position myself to tell which of the post VIa models you have after reading and re reading the HMG book. When looking in the book, the horn outlet with 6 panels is different than the pictured Model 6b which have 2 panels only, while a Model 6 manufactured from September 1913-March 1915 that is only shown on a drawing with the lid closed, has this 6 panel horn outlet like both our machines.
However, taking into consideration the HMV Exhibition soundbox on your machine (that I believe is post 1918 ?), versus The Gramophone Company Exhibition soundbox on my machine, and the fact that your model has a needle box, and also screws holding the motor board, (all components that from the factory seem to be non existent on my VIa and the very earliest HMV table grands), I still believe your machine is slightly younger than my machine, even if they both are Model 6 table grands (VI/6), made between 1912-1926

It could also be very interesting to know what brake is on your machine, Phonosandradios, if you ppossibly could check that? The brake is not visible on the photos in the old thread.

I am of course also very open to be corrected on my assumptions, so if some of the very experienced HMV experts can settle this it would be very welcome, since this obviously is a HMV model with a very complex history.

And, thank you Andreas for explaning the wood types !


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