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 Post subject: If it works... Don't touch it!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:45 pm 
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Victor IV
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Keep'em well oiled
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:51 am
Posts: 1087
Location: Madrid, Spain
Why I ever decided to disassemble that motor completely, clean it thoroughly, and reassemble it? Since then, 18 months ago, my tabletop HMV style 3 sounds as a coffee grinder. And it is in the spindle gear and governor worm meshing. It didn't sound this way at the beginning, it was only after some time... Today I've spent the whole afternoon trying to fix that noise, even I've changed the spindle gear, the governor axis, and nothing. I've moved up and down the drive gear on the spindle. I've inverted it. I've moved the governor up and down. Nothing.
Finally I've just replaced again the original parts, and reassembled it again. The coffee grinder, at least, seems to cover the noise with the music, but when you let it turn without playing, it grinds anything you'll want! Five hours of work for nothing.
When I bought it, the motor was a bit sluggish, bit it worked silently... I've had this same experience with several machines, and each time along the years I've said to myself: don't remove the old grease. It fills the wire down spots and teeth, and when you clean the gears diligently, unavoidably the great train becomes noisier...
Next time I buy a machine, I'll add some oil and nothing more!
I'm tired and discouraged!
Luck that the big motors 32 &34 never have any problem. Certainly they are much better than the old motors. I believe the helicoidal gearing it's much more silent than the straight gearing.

Brrrrr... :x
Inigo


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 Post subject: Re: If it works... Don't touch it!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:17 pm 
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Victor III
Keep winding up
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:58 am
Posts: 731
Location: My gramophone repair room
I am sorry for your bad experience, Inigo.
I admit I have not yet had this experience with any of the different HMV motors I have serviced so far, and this spring/summer/autumn I have in total serviced at least 12 different HMV motors, BUT they have all been 32, 34 and the various motors for the different portable machines. I have also serviced 2 Victrola XI, Odeon double spring motors, Triumphon etc, but they all run well, no bad sound.
The only motor that so far give bad sound is a Union motor for a Beka horn machine, but it did not run at all before I serviced it, and also...it is a very old and simple motor really, so I guess some noise from this motor is maybe normal.
I am almost obsessed with servicing motors when I see a gramophone now, dissasembling them all to the last screw. It has become a real obsession, but now I have to rest my hands some weeks, because I have tendonitis in my right hand from all the polishing, and probably also from working on the main springs for hours on each spring. Luckily I have now found a better way to clean the springs, and better ways of avoiding too much metal polish, so there is hope for the future.:)
I probably should not say it...but you are of course using a good grease... :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: If it works... Don't touch it!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:42 pm 
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Victor O
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Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:51 am
Posts: 53
Location: Italy, UK
"If it works... Don't touch it!". I Admit I say this to myself a few times... In any case can you upload a picture of the motor?


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 Post subject: Re: If it works... Don't touch it!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:24 pm 
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Victor I
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:34 am
Posts: 190
Location: Spain
Hi Iñigo,

I see you are in Madrid and so do I. I deal with these kind of problems everyday and fix them on my shop.

If you want, I can have a look at it.

Regards,

Pedro Martinez
PedroFono
www.pedrofono.es


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 Post subject: Re: If it works... Don't touch it!
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:44 am 
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Victor IV
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Keep'em well oiled
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:51 am
Posts: 1087
Location: Madrid, Spain
Thanks Pedro... By the moment it doesn't disturb the music, it's noisy only when running without load. What I've planned to do is to let the screws off the motorboard, and play the machine some times. Then unscrew the spindle gear and use a gauge to measure it's position, then move it a bit up or down and fix it again. Then test several times, then move again using a gauge to position the gear on the spindle, reattach, play again, and so on. I think it's a matter of patience and time, just to find again that sweet spot... Eventually, if I cannot succeed, I have a replacement for both parts, the gear and the governor worm, so I can change any of them and try again. I have to take it easy and slow. The gears are apparently in good shape, no torn down teeth, no nicks... There aren't any worn out parts nor any considerable gaps or backlash anywhere, so I think it's only to find again the original position of the gears. That spindle is the old model, with no guiding nick for the set screw, so you have freedom to position the gear up and down between certain limits.
My discouraging the other day was to blame on my high expectations of getting it right that time. It's clear to me now that I must persist on trying different positions. I'll come back later again reporting on my progress, if any.
If I get really desperate, I'll have to consider getting some help from you! Thanks a lot.
Inigo


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 Post subject: Re: If it works... Don't touch it!
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:08 pm 
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Victor V
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 2:04 pm
Posts: 2491
Inigo wrote:
Why I ever decided to disassemble that motor completely, clean it thoroughly, and reassemble it? Since then, 18 months ago, my tabletop HMV style 3 sounds as a coffee grinder. And it is in the spindle gear and governor worm meshing. It didn't sound this way at the beginning, it was only after some time... Today I've spent the whole afternoon trying to fix that noise, even I've changed the spindle gear, the governor axis, and nothing. I've moved up and down the drive gear on the spindle. I've inverted it. I've moved the governor up and down. Nothing.
Finally I've just replaced again the original parts, and reassembled it again. The coffee grinder, at least, seems to cover the noise with the music, but when you let it turn without playing, it grinds anything you'll want! Five hours of work for nothing.
When I bought it, the motor was a bit sluggish, bit it worked silently... I've had this same experience with several machines, and each time along the years I've said to myself: don't remove the old grease. It fills the wire down spots and teeth, and when you clean the gears diligently, unavoidably the great train becomes noisier...
Next time I buy a machine, I'll add some oil and nothing more!
I'm tired and discouraged!
Luck that the big motors 32 &34 never have any problem. Certainly they are much better than the old motors. I believe the helicoidal gearing it's much more silent than the straight gearing.

Brrrrr... :x


I had a really good horn gramophone which played well when I looked at the motor the governor ( upright ) gear and intermediate gear were coated in "red gunk " :( So i cleaned it off ! The result the noisiest motor ever ! I dream of finding this " red gunk " to apply to noisy motors ! What was it ?


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 Post subject: Re: If it works... Don't touch it!
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:40 pm 
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Victor II
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:31 pm
Posts: 256
If it ain't broke, don't fix it?


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 Post subject: Re: If it works... Don't touch it!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:43 am 
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Victor IV
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Keep'em well oiled
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:51 am
Posts: 1087
Location: Madrid, Spain
I bet that the old dry grease helps. It has filled the corners where noises are generated. When you clean it off, all the metal corners are refreshed, ready to make noises. It's the same with old cars. I learned levy years ago that one of the tricks used by sellers was to put grease mixed with wood flour in the gear box, for this hides noises that the gear box would make if it is cleaned and regreased with fresh grease. When I'm cleaning the old grease from Gramophone gears, that image always comes to mind, and I think I should not remove old grease except the surplus one. I've only done that in one motor, that worked so well that I decided to add oil and no more. It is an old Aeolian motor, and works silent!
Inigo


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 Post subject: Re: If it works... Don't touch it!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:06 am 
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Victor V
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 2:04 pm
Posts: 2491
Inigo wrote:
I bet that the old dry grease helps. It has filled the corners where noises are generated. When you clean it off, all the metal corners are refreshed, ready to make noises. It's the same with old cars. I learned levy years ago that one of the tricks used by sellers was to put grease mixed with wood flour in the gear box, for this hides noises that the gear box would make if it is cleaned and regreased with fresh grease. When I'm cleaning the old grease from Gramophone gears, that image always comes to mind, and I think I should not remove old grease except the surplus one. I've only done that in one motor, that worked so well that I decided to add oil and no more. It is an old Aeolian motor, and works silent!



Yes sawdust in the gear box to stop noise and egg white in the radiator to stop leaks :lol: BUT I reckon the red gunk on my motor was some sort of proprietary product specifically for noise reduction not in gramophones per se but some other mechanical situation involving gearing


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 Post subject: Re: If it works... Don't touch it!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:14 pm 
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Victor I
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:06 pm
Posts: 148
Hello "soundgen" The "RED GUNK" you mention that you found on your old horn gramophone motor, MAY have been rubber grease, mainly used in situations where there are rubber components, such as rubber brake boots, etc. I know the grease and have used it on the "Girling" brakes of my pre-war cars. It is readily available on e bay, and is quite cheap. there are tins of about 50gm and 100gm if I remember correctly.
Another motor item that may be worth a try is copper grease, or molybdenum grease.


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