EMG Flyers

Discussions on Talking Machines of British or European Manufacture
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emgcr
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Re: EMG Flyers

Post by emgcr »

I am sure you are right about the Paillard GGR 255 which seems to be the motor often used in the Mk VIII (and Cowey) but, of course, it only contained two springs. Your confirmation that it will power four sides in very useful to know. Many thanks. From what I have seen, it would appear that Garrard and Collaro were used more slightly later on. What is the experience of others ?

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Orchorsol
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Re: EMG Flyers

Post by Orchorsol »

All fascinating, many thanks everyone! My High Holborn Mk VIII (or Standard!) has a Collaro motor.
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Frankia
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Re: EMG Flyers

Post by Frankia »

I have no idea where to search to find it, but I remember some years ago reading that HMV advertised their oil bath motor, with its two springs, as a four record motor. Maybe some of the HMV experts will know where to find this? Up until now I have always taken these statements from the various companies of those days that a motor could play three or four records as simply referring to the records, not the springs.

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Re: EMG Flyers

Post by Frankia »

Another thought, which is actually more of a question since again I can't specify references to back up my recollection.

Did Collaro in one of its catalogues make a claim that its D30 motor - another two spring motor - could play four twelve inch records? I have a vague memory that this is the case. I'm only trying to establish if it was reasonably common in those days for companies and others to refer to motors by the number of records they could handle. Again, maybe someone who is more in touch with this literature than I am will be able to verify this, or correct the "record." (Sorry - terrible pun - but I'm in lockdown!!)
I should say that I also have a gramophone with a Collaro D30 motor. It struggles to get to the end of four twelve inch records, but it was refitted, not that long before my ownership I was given to understand, with new springs. It is possible that the newer springs, in later times, were not as long as the originals. So my experience is not all that useful I realise as I write!

I know that we have a copy of spring measurements for all the various motors on this forum somewhere. However I think it comes from the 1950s. Not for one moment suggesting anything spurious about it, but I've always wondered if, because of its dating, that some of the spring lengths had become more generic than in previous decades, because of the lessening popularity of the spring motor by then, and the subsequent financial considerations that would have made it sensible to bunch together some springs of identical width and thickness under the same length. Wonder if my D30 experience might indicate that, though of course the other possibility is simply hyperbole on the part of the company!
This isn't directly relevant, so apologies for rattling on. :?

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Re: EMG Flyers

Post by Frankia »

Yet again - I went to chunny's magnificent website and realised that he has the Collaro D30 claim on there in print! The motor claims to play four 12 inch sides. The Paillard GR 255 doesn't have a direct quote referring to it, but there are excellent photographs of that motor. There is a reference to a Paillard GB 255 which lays claim to play four 12 inch records. I also noticed in passing that the Garrard 10b motor claims to play three twelve inch sides - a claim I know to be true since I have another gramophone with one of those installed.
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Re: EMG Flyers

Post by chunnybh »

..it would appear that Garrard and Collaro were used more slightly later on. What is the experience of others ?
A rough estimate:
  • Thorens or Collaro: 1923-1927
  • Paillard GGR 255: 1927-1929
  • Paillard GGR 255, Collaro D30, Garrard 10B, Garrard U5 Electric or Garrard Electric Induction: 1929-1936...
The Paillard GGR 255 is rarely seen outside of an EMG. I suspect in 1927, a large order must have been placed with Paillard for this superior motor.
BTW the two early flyers were sent to me as a scan by Rod Cornelius. I lost contact with him a while back and was hesitant to upload them here. I'm now back in contact with him again and he has kindly allowed me to share them here. I'll upload a few more soon.

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chunnybh
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Re: EMG Flyers

Post by chunnybh »

Here is a pdf of the 1926 EMG flyer. Courtesy of Rod Cornelius
EMG Doc.pdf
(1.12 MiB) Downloaded 32 times
I have already uploaded the flyer advertising "The new E.M.G. Extension and Tone Arm Set for the Wilson Panharmonic Horn".
The other side has an ad for their "cork mat". I may have seen another ad for the cork mat but cannot seem to find it.

I have one of these mats and mentioned it to Frank a few years ago. At the time we could not verify it's authenticity but only a few months ago, Frank had found another one exactly the same.
"I have just this minute made another connection, about the cork mat. Was it not Mr Creese, with his one arm, that had a pension of some sort from a grateful government, in the form of selling cork products, before he got the job with EMG tuning ( and making ?) soundboxes ?
What fun finding these tiny particles of history, and fitting them into the jigsaw puzzle !"
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Attachments
EMG-CORK-MAT.jpg
EMG-CORK-MAT.jpg (37.1 KiB) Viewed 120 times

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emgcr
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Re: EMG Flyers

Post by emgcr »

A big thank you to you and Rod Cornelius for another fascinating insight into the firm at this very early development stage. What an extremely rare publication.

This is the only time I have seen actual letter references to four different soundbox types. I imagine that had more to do with clever marketing to capitalise on the new electrical recording process rather than there being any major design differences. Ginn did not miss a trick !

The pedestal model shown is so very attractive. Do we know if any have survived ? Interesting that a square horn is referred to although the doors are rectangular. Not quite sure how Michael Ginn would have explained the physics of that one !

The tonearm drawing seems to be purely schematic and I am not sure what the “Extra angle for reflection” is all about ? Hard to tell from the drawing but does it show an angle greater than 90 degrees with a downward sloping arm ? Why should that be of benefit I wonder ? The conical shape seems to be quite pronounced (rather like HMVs examples)---more than subsequent models. The swivel looks rather simplistic and does not seem to involve ball bearings but that may not be correct ? The “Great overall length--12” centres” may be misleading as firstly, the drawing arrows do not show the centres and secondly the actual distance between motor spindle and tonearm centres is normally very close to 11 inches to achieve good tracking. I wonder when the term Quincke tube was first used rather than “adjustable resonating chamber” ?

Brilliant to have this new information which really does throw much light on the development story which clearly was evolving quickly at that time.

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Inigo
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Re: EMG Flyers

Post by Inigo »

Thanks for these marvelous and interesting documents...
Inigo

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chunnybh
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Re: EMG Flyers

Post by chunnybh »

This is the only time I have seen actual letter references to four different soundbox types. I imagine that had more to do with clever marketing to capitalise on the new electrical recording process rather than there being any major design differences. Ginn did not miss a trick !
The Special Notice stating the new models follow Percy Wilson's "Expansion" formula is Ginn exaggerating again.
I am assuming the big difference between the two soundboxes is that one has a mica diaphragm, the other aluminum.
That would suggest Harry Burden brought the aluminum diaphragm to Ginn a bit earlier in 1926. The soundbox of choice at the time would have been the modified Exhibition.

As for the Pedestal model, I believe this may be one in Walnut. The more I look at it the more it looks like the legs have been chopped. I've certainly had to rethink some of the early models since seeing these flyers.
http://www.gramophonemuseum.com/emg-gra ... model.html
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emg-gramophone-pedestal-model-15.jpg

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